National Defence Committee on Sept. 28th, 2023

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Why not? This is perhaps the hottest military commodity in the world right now. Every allied military that fires 155 shells needs 155 shells.

Why is there no urgency in getting the production ramped up?

[Bill Matthews]

There are two things, Mr. Chair.

Number one—and the chief may have to help me here—is that there are variants of the 155, and the production of 155s in Canada is not, I'll call it, the most desirable variant. When you talk about upgrading production, we're also talking about new machinery, etc., to make a different type of 155. Discussions are under way, but it's a pretty big investment.

The chief can help me out with variants here.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

You've identified an issue that I am extremely concerned about, because it underpins our own lack of readiness in this area. We need more of a sense of urgency in this area, but with increasing industrial capacity, we need the contracts that go along with that to be able to produce the ammunition, to get the additional production lines open, etc.

We have not produced one additional round of ammunition since February 2022, so yes, this is something that greatly concerns me.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

To be clear for the record, the 3,000 per month is the same production as before the beginning of the war in Ukraine.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Yes, and I'll add that those are the M107 variants. What we need are the M795 variants, which we do not yet have the production capability for in Canada.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I can't even....

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

I can geek out on the details with you if you want, but....

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Given that previous witnesses last week gave us almost no meaningful information, take half a minute for some of those details.

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

The M107 variant is a shorter distance, so the range is shorter. The kill radius is less and the accuracy is less. The M795 variant, which we consider the operational round and which we prefer to use in operations, has about a five-kilometre longer range, it's more precise and it has a wider kill radius, if you will. That being said, the M107 will still work, but not as well as the M795, which we hope to retool to.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Is it not fair to say that literally every allied country is searching for this class of ammunition? How on earth could there not be contracts given that decades of production are being expended very quickly in the war in Ukraine?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

You are right. At every NATO chiefs of defence meeting I go to, this is an issue of discussion. Our allies are rightly very concerned about this.

We're all looking at ways of ramping up production. It is of increasing concern, because when we take a look at the Russian reconstitution ability, they're actually reconstituting at a faster rate than we anticipated. In order to continue to, first, ensure we have our own proper stock and, second, ensure we can continue to support Ukraine in the long term, the accelerated production of artillery ammunition is extremely important.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Is there any possibility for Ukraine to win the war without some type of parity or some type of ability to compete with Russian production and expenditure of artillery?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

There are many pathways to victory, but as we take a look at the reliance of modern warfare—in fact, warfare for the past 150 years—artillery has been pretty key.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you.

On tanks, once our battle tanks have fully deployed with the battle group commitment in Latvia and also with the tanks that have already been sent to Ukraine, how many operational tanks are left for either further deployment or training?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

Mr. Chair, I'm going to have to do some math here.

We started with 82 tanks. We donated eight to Ukraine. We're deploying 22 to Latvia. On the math, just very quickly, doing it in my head—there's an accountant sitting beside me here—it's 52.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Are those 52 tanks all operational and fit to deploy, either for use or for training?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

No. I don't know the rate off the top of my head. I do know what the overall serviceability rate of army vehicles is, and it's not good. It goes down to a shortage of spare parts, national procurement funds and technicians.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Okay, so the 82—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly. This is a five-minute round, not a six-minute round.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

All right.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Collins, you have five minutes, please.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

My questions will be for whoever chooses to answer.

First, I want to talk about Operation Lentus. The minister talked about that, and Christine had a question about that earlier. We've witnessed some incredible natural disasters spurred by climate change over the last number of years. They're happening more often, and I think that by extension they're probably draining your resources and your ability to serve in different respects.

There's a question I have on the minister's point about providing appropriate supports and ensuring those who are serving in CAF have the appropriate resources. Do you have any idea or do you have a plan, understanding that you're going to be called on more often on an annual basis, as to how you continue to provide supports to provinces and territories from a personnel perspective, an equipment perspective and a resource perspective?

How do you continue to provide supports to provinces and territories, knowing that you've been stretched thin in other areas?

[Gen Wayne D. Eyre]

You have hit on another issue of great concern. With these increasingly frequent deployments and call-outs, it's affecting our readiness to do our primary function. What is required is additional capacity at the provincial and municipal levels to respond to natural disasters. Make no mistake about it: The Canadian Armed Forces needs to remain that force of last resort, but more frequently we're being called upon as the force of first choice. Natural disasters, with the intensity and the frequency, mean that the calls upon us are not going away, but more capacity is required.

This also speaks to some of the force design and force development challenges we are facing. There's an inherent tension between high-tech precision on one hand and mass on the other. Responding to natural disasters and things like the war in Ukraine require a certain degree of mass. On the other hand, many of the advanced technologies, the advanced capabilities that are out there, require that precision, that high-tech piece. Finding the balance between those two is a challenge that we are struggling with.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Sir, can I ask, from a budget perspective, what that means to you? You're now being forced to provide more resources, and by extension, you're spending monies that you have in your budget. What kind of allocation have you had to provide now with the number of events that you've had to respond to versus three to five years ago?

[Bill Matthews]

I'll start, Mr. Chair.

The way our funding model works is that the organization absorbs the first $100 million in operation costs every year. For everything beyond that, we are reimbursed by the centre. There is no direct flow of additional resources.

Am I allowed to ask the chief of the defence staff a question? It might be worth it for him to explain the regular pattern of deploy, recover and prepare, and the impact of these deployments on the regular cycle of CAF preparations.