Evidence of meeting #8 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was putin.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Vice-Admiral  Retired) Darren Hawco (Former Military Representative of Canada to NATO, As an Individual
Maria Popova  Professor, McGill University, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Grant McLaughlin

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring this meeting to order.

We have quorum. We have our witnesses present.

The only unusual part of this first hour will be that Mr. Fisher intends to move a motion, which I understand all parties are in agreement with. He'll do that prior to his questions, but it should take virtually no time at all.

We will have a hard stop at 4:30, regrettably. I'm advising witnesses of that. We have to go in camera after that. It requires some technological changes, which are way beyond me. That's what I'm advised.

We have today retired Vice-Admiral Darren Hawco and Maria Popova, a professor at McGill University, who are carrying on a tradition of just absolutely excellent testimony. I'm going to call upon Vice-Admiral Hawco first for his five-minute presentation, and Professor Popova thereafter.

Go ahead, Vice-Admiral Hawco.

3:30 p.m.

Vice-Admiral Retired) Darren Hawco (Former Military Representative of Canada to NATO, As an Individual

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the opportunity, on short notice, to join you today.

I'm a military practitioner with strategic experience in NATO and with the CAF. I was involved in the writing of “Strong, Secure, Engaged” and was the chief of force development before my employment with NATO. I understand requirements, capability development and strategy. My comments and answers to questions will be addressed in that vein.

The writer's block analogy applies: If you've written yourself into a corner, you probably did it a couple of pages back. It's important to understand the context of how we got here as the basis to decide what we need to do about it.

The place to start is with Putin, who, most agree, is the decision-maker. His 16 years with the KGB, doing a lot of unsavoury dry work, turning people, etc., resulted, I think, in a person who perhaps has less regard for the human condition than the average. In 1991, on the dissolution of the Soviet Union, he joined Yeltsin's camp, not Gorbachev's, which shows what he thinks of those decisions.

From 1999 to today, he has been the prime minister and president, in various capacities, of the Russian Federation. He put in a really significant and impactful early focus on reform and the economy, which had significant value for the Russian Federation's standard of living, etc. It also probably created a lens on how he thought Gorbachev should have solved the problem of the Soviet Union, rather than allowing it to fail.

Putin would have observed the Russian Federation's decline as a bipolar superpower with NATO expansion at the expense of the Russian Federation. In 1997, 2004, 2009, 2017 and 2020, 14 countries left the Russian Federation's sphere of influence and joined NATO. A person could understand how he blames the west for going back on words spoken, notwithstanding the actual words in the NATO-Russia founding act.

How would Putin decide he could stop that pattern of behaviour? Well, he could take a chunk of a [Technical difficulty—Editor] a border dispute. If you have a border dispute, you can't join NATO. It's what he did in Georgia in 2008 and again, arguably, what occurred in 2014.

The Russian Federation [Technical difficulty—Editor] that was why Putin fought to address that as prime minister—

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Excuse me, Admiral Hawco. For some reason, you seem to be cutting out. I want to make sure we're keeping up here.

3:30 p.m.

VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco

Sure.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Are the translators okay? Are we good?

I don't think we can do much about it at this point. I apologize again for the interruptions, but welcome to 2022.

Please continue.

3:30 p.m.

VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco

I think the Russian Federation would have seen that steep decline in their economy particularly challenging without a lot of the Soviet state's capacity in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc., and that meant they were more relegated to a resource economy. That partially explains recent, expanded United Nations Arctic claims made by Putin and also may be part of his motivation in relation to Ukraine, because that was a significant industrial capacity element of the Soviet Union.

In the last 70 years, Russian Federation actions, generally speaking, have been opportunistic, but they're against a broader strategy and with a strategic intent in mind, with kind of a freeze-thaw mentality, as I've heard other speakers in previous sessions with you speak about. This means that, in recent years, in Georgia in 2008 and Crimea in 2014, they've taken action, allowed the international community to move on, and then looked for other opportunities.

That speaks to their use of information confrontation, what we would refer to as [Technical difficulty—Editor], refined in recent years by Valery Gerasimov as the Gerasimov doctrine, really just combining military, technological, informational, diplomatic, economic, cultural, all kinds of tactics to achieve specific strategic goals.

I would say that only Putin really knows what he wants, but predictably, he wants recognition. He doesn't want a bipolar world; he wants, as a minimum, a tripolar world with the U.S., China and the Russian Federation involved.

Reasonable or not, he wants to stop eastward NATO expansion. Some will say there's no place to go. Well, of course there is. There are Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Finland, Sweden, Austria, Moldova, Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. He wants NATO to stop this eastward progression. He wants a sphere of influence; he needs to broaden his economy, and he's a human, so he probably has legacy in mind.

In our sense, what are the types of things...? Sanctions, yes, but consider that he operationally planned this a couple of years ago, so he's planned and accounted for sanctions to a certain extent. If you think about what the Chancellor of Germany, Olaf Scholz, recently said to the Bundestag, which I think is illustrative, Germany has put €100 billion for armaments, a commitment to exceed 2% of GDP for defence spending. They've adjusted their energy policy intentions to avoid long-term dependence, and made other industry policy decisions, and they've committed to, of course, the reinforcements that one would expect for NATO missions and activities. Most importantly, I would argue, the chancellor marks this as a turning point in German foreign policy in favour of alliance and efforts through the EU and NATO. Our corollary, perhaps, as Canada, would be the Five Eyes and NATO.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'll turn it back to you.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Admiral Hawco.

Please go ahead, Professor Popova.

3:35 p.m.

Maria Popova Professor, McGill University, As an Individual

Hello, and thank you for this invitation.

I am a professor of political science. I have worked on Russian and Ukrainian domestic politics for about 20 years now. I have extensive experience researching the political processes of both countries. I have written articles and books about that.

What I want to talk about today is the political root of the crisis. As you'll hear in a second, I have a slightly different view from the admiral's, so you'll get a broad range of views here.

The root cause of Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the view expressed many times by Putin, but also probably held by a portion of Russian elites in society, that Ukraine is not a real nation and should not be entitled to its own state. The dissolution of the Soviet Union was a tragedy, according to Putin. He has emphasized this numerous times, and he is working right now to restore it—and here I agree with the admiral—with a view towards his legacy.

One key point that I wanted to emphasize here is that this rhetoric from Russia lays bare the fact that NATO's eastern expansion neither precipitated nor hastened this crisis. NATO [Technical difficulty—Editor] issue to Russia. I'm not going to say that it's irrelevant, but it is behind in importance to the reunification of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples. Even former Soviet president Gorbachev opined recently that he always thought the separation of the Ukrainian and Russian people into two states would cause serious problems. This is first about this issue, and only secondarily about security issues.

Wrapped up, however, in this world view is really a very gross miscalculation about how strongly Ukrainian citizens are attached to their national identity and to their independent state. The resistance that we see from the Ukrainian army and the Ukrainian population at large shows that Russia's expectation with which they went into this war—that they would easily advance to Kyiv as the Ukrainian army lays arms down and the population acquiesces—has turned out to be false. Ironically, this view of Putin, partly a Russian view, undermines rather than advances Russia's stated security interests in the region. Had Putin taken Ukrainian independence seriously, the current crisis could have been avoided.

Even after pro-Russian president Yanukovych was driven out by a popular uprising in 2014, Russia could have achieved many of its security goals through soft power: no NATO expansion into Ukraine, as Ukraine has never been even close to joining NATO; a Ukraine that was separate but largely friendly to Russia; and continued levers of Russia's influence over the political process in Ukraine. More pro-Russian and pro-Ukrainian presidents alternated in power throughout Ukraine's 30 years of independence. Russia had important levers of economic and political power in Ukraine. All that was needed was for Putin to recognize the 2014 events for what they really were, a domestic upheaval against an increasingly authoritarian and unpopular president, rather than a western plot against Russia. He went with the second interpretation. This is where we're at now.

I also wanted to address the broader issue of how peace can be achieved, and what security and political situation we will have once these hostilities end, which we hope is sooner rather than later.

The latest news from today is that Russia may be willing to start talks with two pre-conditions: Ukraine should disarm and stay neutral outside of NATO; and the west should agree to a formal recognition of Crimea as Russian territory. For now, these are non-starters, but we really need to start thinking about what peace may and should look like. Agreeing to disarm is equivalent to capitulation of Ukraine without any security guarantees from somewhere that Russia would not invade again.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Professor Popova, could you wind up, please? We're past your five minutes at this point.

3:40 p.m.

Professor, McGill University, As an Individual

Maria Popova

Okay, sure.

Let me mention that the biggest problem is that Ukraine needs security guarantees. Also the problem of recognizing Crimea is that this is a threat to the international rules-based order.

What I want to say really briefly is that the reality that Europe and North America are faced with right now after this Russian aggression is that a new iron curtain will be descending in Europe. After this war, Russia's neighbours and any states that were part of historic Russia will not feel secure from Russian attack.

The EU and NATO members have the structures through which to think about how to deal with this hostile Russia in the future. The non-EU NATO members in the neighbourhood will have to figure out how to avoid being sucked into Russia's sphere of influence or worse.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Unfortunately, we're going to have to end it there.

3:40 p.m.

Professor, McGill University, As an Individual

Maria Popova

Absolutely.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I'm sure you'll work those points in as members question you. I apologize.

For the six-minute round I have Mr. Doherty, Mr. Fisher, Madame Normandin and Madame Mathyssen.

Mr. Doherty, you have six minutes, please.

Mr. Doherty, we can't hear you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Can you hear me now?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I can hear you now, but it's a little faint.

3:40 p.m.

Bloc

Christine Normandin Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

The interpreter says that the microphone maybe isn't connected.

3:40 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Grant McLaughlin

Mr. Doherty, we're wondering if maybe your microphone isn't plugged in. Can you unplug and then replug it to double-check that?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Testing one, two, three.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Okay, Todd, you can restart.

February 28th, 2022 / 3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Professor Popova, last week Conservatives called on the government to take additional actions to show Canadian solidarity with the people of Ukraine. We called on the government to declare Russia's ambassador to Canada persona non grata and expel him. Would you agree that in this time of a global crisis—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Doherty, sorry again. Your mike is now too close to your mouth.

Have another go at it.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Professor, should Canada take a stronger stance in the wake of a global crisis and expel the Russian ambassador from Canada?

3:40 p.m.

Professor, McGill University, As an Individual

Maria Popova

To be honest, we would have to talk to the Russians in order to stop this war. Expelling is a very strong symbolic step, but somehow the talks will have to continue.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Admiral Hawco, do you concur with the professor's comments?

3:40 p.m.

VAdm (Ret'd) Darren Hawco

Yes.