National Defence Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

That would be very helpful if you could that. It was a request that was made of your department.

The Brookfield hack disrupted a number of CAF members' moves. Why did it take so long for that leak to become known publicly?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Mr. Chair, I don't think that I can respond as to why it was that we were not aware of the leak when it first occurred. It would be for SIRVA and BGRS to provide that explanation. However, I would like to clarify that moves continued throughout the entire time frame. Even during the period when the website was down, we were still able to provide members with the advance of funds that permitted them to be able to close on houses and to complete their moves.

Thank you.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

There have been complaints to the contrary that we have heard: that transactions were affected, that people did not get their money, and that there were problems with house transactions closing. What information was leaked in this hack?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

That is not, at this time, fully known. As you are aware, this was not just BGRS and SIRVA Canada. This was worldwide. The company is still working through the analysis in that regard, and we expect—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

How many individuals were affected?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Again, Mr. Chair, I can't give you the total number because, at this point, that has not been fully validated, either by the company or then, by extension, as we get the information to know that.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

What steps have been taken to ensure that CAF members have their information protected?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Mr. Chair, there are a number of things. The website is back up with additional protective measures. We are looking at the contracting clauses so that, as we go forward, we can ensure that we have a more robust requirement contractually to provide that protection.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Kelly.

Mr. Fisher, you have five minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, folks, for being here today.

We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Canada's military families. Military spouses, of course, support their loved ones in numerous ways when they are serving here or serving abroad. How are we currently supporting military spouses as they pick up their lives and relocate? Are we assisting with employment? Are there other things that we do for military spouses during relocation?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

I'd like to expand on two elements of exactly what we're doing. The first would be the work that the Canadian Forces morale and welfare services is doing to deliver a spousal employment program, which is already delivering success, and I will give you two clear examples of that.

It has conducted virtual career and networking fairs. There were three events this fall, which we had 120 spouses and 14 employer partners attend, and there was a 71% follow-up with spouses to, in fact, engage in those discussions about potential employment. There was also a LinkedIn content-creation session, and we had 30 attendees across those two sessions. The intention is, in 2024, to offer online career counselling where we will offer virtual career support to military spouses to support them.

Again through the Canadian Forces morale and welfare services, in concert with Maple, the other way that we support our families—because we are aware that medical care is often a challenge—is through the military family virtual healthcare program, which offers the ability for telehealth that permits members who may not yet have a family doctor to be able to access medical advice and to obtain prescriptions and lab or imaging requisitions. It's just one of the many ways that we are endeavouring to better support families in their relocation.

Thank you for the question.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much.

My riding of Dartmouth—Cole Harbour is home to CFB Shearwater, and the military family resource centre is an incredible resource for military families.

I remember that back in 2018 we delivered new funding to modernize the military family services program and provide additional support to military families.

I'm interested in your thoughts on just how important MFRCs are to ensuring that military families are supported, especially in relation to relocation.

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

I don't work for Canadian Forces morale and welfare services, but I will certainly acknowledge the valuable role that the military family resource centres play. Certainly for CFMWS, our morale and welfare services, they continue to look at the support they provide and how they can better support the MFRCs.

I realize that doesn't necessarily give you the answer that you're looking for, but I also know well not to over-promise for CFMWS.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I appreciate that.

When it comes to accessing military housing, are difficulties the same for men and women?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Mr. Chair, I think that's a difficult question for us to try to unpack. It's not something that we would specifically ask members, because there are so many factors that would go into that.

We tend to think that it might be a question of whether they have children. Are they required to then find a larger residence? Are there funding implications that they might not be able to afford it?

I'm not sure that there is any greater difficulty for women than there is for men, but I will be honest that that is an opinion, and that is not based on any facts.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Minister Blair talked about phasing in the CFHD.

Can you expand on the expected timeline for full implementation?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

The Canadian Forces housing differential came into effect on July 1 of this year. At this point in time, we are still seeing members going through the application process to attain the benefit, because they need to apply for it, but it is fully implemented, in that, if you qualify for it, then you will receive it.

I think the piece that you may be referring to is the provisional post living differential, which is the measure that bridges the gap between the previous benefit that existed and this new benefit that we have created. That will be over a three-year timeline, where we will reduce how much it is that we provide to offset that gap every year until, I believe, July 1, 2026—if I have done my numbers correctly—when that benefit will cease to exist. At that point in time, the only benefit that Canadian Armed Forces members will receive for affordability will be the Canadian Forces housing differential.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Mr. Ruff, welcome back to the committee.

You have five minutes.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Thanks for coming.

There are roughly 1,398 personnel on the priority one list. Do you know which bases they're at primarily?

[Serge Tremblay]

I can look through my notes and consume some time, if you wish. I can answer, perhaps, a bit later on, but yes, we do have the breakdown.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

Are we still roughly posting about 4,000 to 5,000 people per APS?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Those numbers are around 8,000, but that 8,000 includes those who are completing their training and coming off of basic training.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

It's hard to know without the exact locations. I know that Mr. Tremblay's going to try to find the primary bases.

To me, if you're talking of 1,400 people on the primary list, we're posting another.... Let's say, for regular force people who are permanent and not going on a training, we're talking almost 25% who may or may not have the option of even getting access to a residential housing unit because they're just not available, right? They need to go on the wait-list, or they have to find something else, just based on the number as it escalates.

Esquimalt seems to be one of the problem areas. The new post living differential—or whatever the new name for it is—stops after seven years, if I understand it correctly, but, as we mentioned, the navy barely moves.

My concern is for those lower ranks. Because it is basically income tested, if I understand it correctly, after seven years, if you're a master seaman in Esquimalt making—I'm grabbing numbers off the top of my head—$60,000 or $70,000 a year, and you're living in one of these high-end markets with no housing that's available to you, you're living in a very expensive place and then, all of sudden after seven years, you lose that allowance that right now they continue to get under the current structure, and it's being phased down.

What options do they have?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Mr. Chair, perhaps I will clarify the seven years.

This is a new methodology for the Canadian Forces housing differential. It's to address the affordability of housing. We needed to find a way to ensure that what we are delivering is going to address the need, which is affordability. Seven years allows us, right now, to attain five years of data. We're not even through year one. By that five-years we'll be able to do an assessment to understand whether we need to change the methodology. Then, potentially, by year seven, we can decide, “Okay, the methodology doesn't work.”

If you look at the numbers within seven years, many members in many locations will have been promoted. Right now, they may be making $77,000, because that is approximately what the lower ranks make on average. In seven years' time, they're more likely to be making an amount over $80,000, because that is where the bulk of Canadian Armed Forces members' salaries sit, in fact.

We are saying “seven years” at this point, but a lot can change between now and our reaching that seven-year mark.

[Alex Ruff, Conservative, Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON]

It's good to hear that you will go back, look at it and base it on the data.

However, I can give you plenty of examples across.... At least, in the army, we have career lower-rank members who are essential to the Canadian Armed Forces' survival—people who never leave whatever base they get posted to. Again, not all bases have residential housing unit options. I represent Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound. It has the Meaford base in it. Looking at your latest annual report, and through my own knowledge of the base, I see zero options there. You have quarters for people going through training, but any of the permanent 400 to 500 military personnel posted there don't even have that option.

I want to build on one of the questions asked earlier by Ms. Normandin, I think, about the $30,000 housing equity assistance program. That changed about five or six.... How many years ago was it? The last time I was aware of it, it was $15,000, so it's nice to see that it's up to $30,000.

When did that change occur?