National Defence Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I call this meeting to order.

This is the first meeting of the study that was ordered, which reads:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee undertake a study on the lack of housing availability on or near bases for Canadian Armed Forces members and their families and the challenges facing members and their families when they are required to move across the country; that the committee shall hold a minimum of four meetings for the duration of the study; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

These are the first two hours.

We have with us Rob Chambers, assistant deputy minister. Thank you for coming, sir.

We also have Brigadier-General Virginia Tattersall and Serge Tremblay, general manager of infrastructure and technical services.

I just want to clarify with the clerk. Do they each have five minutes, or do we want to have them all in five minutes?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Hilary Smyth]

There will be two that are five minutes and one that's shorter.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

You'll go in the order you wish to.

We'll start with Mr. Chambers.

[Rob Chambers, Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Environment, Department of National Defence]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I'm the assistant deputy minister of infrastructure and environment at the Department of National Defence. In particular, I am responsible for National Defence's lands and infrastructure in Canada.

I have the chance to work closely with chief military personnel on issues involving the full range of accommodations that are available to CAF members, and sometimes their families, which includes Crown housing and residential housing. Speaking of which, I also have the opportunity to work with the Canadian Forces housing agency, which is the special operating agency responsible for the day-to-day management of that Crown housing portfolio.

As a special operating agency, the CFHA, as we call it—the Canadian Forces housing agency—has a bit more flexibility and extra authorities compared to some other parts of the organization. From a management and governance perspective, it reports in to the Defence team through my organization.

I suspect my colleagues will be fielding most of your questions today, but if I can be of any help, obviously, I am more than happy to be.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Chambers.

Mr. Tremblay.

[Serge Tremblay, General Manager, Infrastructure and Technical Services, Department of National Defence]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members. Thank you for inviting the Canadian Forces housing agency to join you today.

My name is Serge Tremblay, and my title is general manager of infrastructure and technical services. To elaborate, I am a part the Canadian Forces housing agency.

The agency’s purpose is twofold. We support the quality of life of CAF members by supporting the housing services program. Also, as Mr. Chambers covered, we are responsible for the sustainable management of the actual infrastructure in support of the housing program. That's the houses.

Current demand for residential housing in DND is high, and that is owing partially to the private sector market conditions, which have increased the demand for housing for all Canadians, not just for our CAF members. CFHA has been working in lockstep with both Mr. Chambers’ group and Brigadier-General Tattersall and her team to try to find living accommodation solutions for the CAF members. It's a complex problem space that is characterizing Canada’s current housing situation, and the answers have not been easy.

I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Brigadier-General Tattersall.

[BGen Virginia Tattersall, Director General, Compensation and Benefits, Department of National Defence]

Good afternoon.

I'm Brigadier General Virginia Tattersall, director general of compensation and benefits.

I'd like to take this opportunity to speak to the concerns around housing for military members and their families.

Affordability and availability of housing are concerns for all Canadians. Military members share the same concerns; however, those concerns can be multiplied when a military member is required to relocate for service reasons.

In my role, I endeavour to provide both the means and support for Canadian Armed Forces members and their families in finding living accommodation that considers the needs of their personal circumstances, and to support the Canadian Forces morale and welfare services in providing the community services and programs that members require.

I also ensure that members are appropriately compensated for their work, which is performed under a wide range of conditions. That is why this past year, the chief of the defence staff approved the remittance of rations and quarters to help members start their careers on a sure financial footing, particularly those who have not yet met their operationally functional point—or in a simplified version, who are not yet completely trained.

Moreover, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces implemented the Canadian Forces housing differential, a monthly payment designed specifically to assist those who need some financial assistance to secure suitable housing.

In recognition of this significant change in the benefit, we also introduced the provisional post living differential to bridge what members were receiving as the post living differential, and what they will now receive with the Canadian Forces housing differential.

Canadian Armed Forces members also received an economic increase to better reflect the cost of living. While the economic increase, Canadian Forces housing differential, and provisional post living differential are an important part of supporting our members and their families with the cost of living and affordability of housing, our work is not done.

My team and I, in concert with the associate deputy minister, infrastructure and environment; the Canadian Forces housing agency; and the Canadian forces morale and welfare services are looking at how to better support members with the challenges of housing affordability and availability.

Thank you for your time today, and I welcome your comments and questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Mrs. Kramp-Neuman, you have six minutes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, and thank you for being here this afternoon.

Minister Blair has suggested that there is a significant deficit of approximately 7,000 military housing units, and noted that there are not enough resources to construct new units on Crown land; yet, the minister proceeds to let billions of dollars of the defence budget lapse year over year, and makes over $1 billion in cuts.

General Eyre has suggested that housing is one of the top concerns for his troops. We clearly have a retention and recruiting crisis, and the housing chaos certainly doesn't help.

How can people be motivated to join and stay when the quality, affordability and availability of housing is so dismal?

[Rob Chambers]

Perhaps I could offer some additional remarks, and I'll turn to my colleagues who can dig in on some of the detail.

It was noted in the opening remarks that Canadian Forces members and their families are facing housing challenges alongside all Canadians. The struggles that all Canadians are experiencing, and perhaps that you yourselves are experiencing, or that I am experiencing, are no different for them in certain respects.

My colleague from chief military personnel can speak a bit more to the supports that are being provided to allow for the differences. The nature of the service is obviously different, so there are supports in place to respond to that.

From an investment perspective, investments are being made in new construction and new housing. I'll let Serge speak to that in a bit more detail. At the same time, it is a challenging time. There's no denying that, but that's the job we have ahead of us here, and that's what we have to deliver on.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Maybe just to add, while Mr. Tremblay's going to answer that question, could he speak to an ATIP request that was filed with the department? It asks the following:

Provide a list outlining wait times for military housing at CAF bases and wings. Limit to records since Jan. 1, 2022. Final drafts only.

My concern is that only two bases were included. They were Esquimalt and Greenwood. In addition to the other answer, why is it not standard practice for this government to regularly track the housing numbers and shortages on our bases?

[Serge Tremblay]

I am unaware of that request. I will, unfortunately, have to get back to you on the details for that particular ATIP. I'm not familiar with the details.

It is standard practice for us to regularly track wait times on an operational basis, but we don't, historically, keep records over time as far as wait times serving the purposes of our operations are concerned. It helps—

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

On that specific comment, as of October 16, 2023, there were approximately 4,500 CAF members on the CFHA wait-list for military housing.

To your knowledge, has this number decreased at all over the past month and a half?

[Serge Tremblay]

I'm sorry. Could you please repeat that?

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

On October 16, 2023, 4,500 CAF members were on the CFHA wait-list.

[Serge Tremblay]

I'd like to begin by elaborating that our wait-list is divided into two groups. There's a priority-one wait-list and a priority-two wait-list. Priority one is for regular forces members who are moving at the cost of the Crown to a new location and have yet to find a house in their new location. The priority-two wait-list is for people who are already in that location and have a solution in hand, but they would like to change their situation and move into Crown housing.

While the number remains 4,500, I would focus on the priority-one wait-list, which is for people looking for houses. The priority-one wait-list has 1,398 applicants as of October 26 of this year.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

Further, there is aid going to service members who can't sell their houses. What aid is being given to individuals who cannot?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

That's perhaps difficult to unpack in a very short time. Essentially, there are two pieces we provide to members, in terms of support.

The first one is for while you have your house listed. If you decide you're going to relocate and sell your house, and you're maintaining a residence in another location, there's a period of time during which we provide an allowance. It's called a “temporary dual residence” allowance. It offsets the cost so you're not trying to carry both—a mortgage at one place while paying for another.

The second fact that comes into play is this: If you decide not to sell your house, there is also a benefit we will provide you. We call it a “real estate incentive”, acknowledging that you're actually saving us money by not selling a house, because we're not having to pay the costs of legal and real estate.

The third one is the fact that, if you sell your house and come into a situation where you are selling at a loss, there is home equity assistance, which reimburses up to $30,000 for the loss you have sustained.

All of those measures endeavour to minimize the impact members might experience in what is obviously a significant transaction for them.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Brigadier-General.

Given Minister Blair's comments, as well as your opening comments to the committee about the housing differential, can you speak to the expected timeline for full implementation?

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

The Canadian Forces housing differential was fully implemented as of July 1. What we were not able to deliver as of July 1 was the programming for our pay system. That has now been completed, and we're delivering not only the Canadian Forces housing differential to members but also the programming that allows us to deliver the provisional post living differential to members.

Again, the limiting factor was this: There wasn't capacity to reprogram our pay system, given how this had a number of complexities to it.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

Colleagues, we have these witnesses for two hours. I'm hoping to get through at least three rounds of questions, so I may be a bit less harsh than I usually am.

Mr. Fillmore, you have six minutes.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the panellists for coming in. Beyond that, thank you for your service in both the civil and armed services.

Brigadier-General, this might be a question for you, to start. Of course, anyone can feel free to dish it off.

This committee has heard that the armed forces are currently in a moment of difficulty with regard to recruitment. I wonder if you have gathered any data or observations that connect difficulty with recruitment to the prospect of housing challenges experienced in the CAF.

[BGen Virginia Tattersall]

I can't give you hard numbers, in terms of a connection between those two particular issues.

I can respond in terms of our broader understanding of joining the Canadian Armed Forces. What is of value to you in joining the Canadian Armed Forces? What is the value proposition? Obviously, housing is a consideration. We all need—particularly in Canada—to have a roof over our heads.

I'm sure there are some who have given thought to what the implication is for them, but I can't give you hard numbers, at this point.