Evidence of meeting #87 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was russia.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Yuliya Kovaliv  Ambassador of Ukraine to Canada
Howard Shatz  Senior Economist, RAND Corporation
Ihor Michalchyshyn  Executive Director, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
Orest Zakydalsky  Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress
David Perry  President and Senior Analyst, Canadian Global Affairs Institute
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Hilary Smyth

4:35 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

Thank you. It's a very timely question, because even pre-war, Ukraine faced significant cyber-attacks. It included attacks on our critical infrastructure, electricity grid, banking sector, government institutions and so on.

We managed to strengthen our digital infrastructure. When the invasion started, there was not one single day when our banking system was not working or when our government was not able to work. This is including the fact that Ukraine has very well-developed digital governance so that people, including over six million people who left Ukraine and another seven million IDPs, were getting many of their government services online with the special government application. It's working, because we are able to protect all this critical infrastructure.

Of course, we appreciate the support we are getting from our NATO partners. We have very close co-operation on cybersecurity with both NATO country members and NATO itself, but Russia is becoming more sophisticated. The significant cyber-attack we are facing today on our mobile operator will also stimulate us to invest more in cybersecurity, learn the lessons and improve it.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

You have successfully hacked the Russian tax system and destroyed all the data. Has Russia been successful in responding in a meaningful way?

4:35 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

As you mentioned, we have today been under a cyber-attack. None of the customer data has been reported to be damaged and the attack has not been reported as being successful. Now the connection is steadily being restored, so there are no major losses. Except for a few hours without connection, it has not had any—

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Ambassador, I was talking about the Ukrainian attack on the Russian banks and the destruction of their data.

4:35 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

I am not ready to comment on the data. I don't have any specific information. I can't comment on that today. Frankly, one of the things...because there was a lack of connection and Internet in Kyiv for over 10 hours today.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Congratulations on the success your side is having on that front.

Do you find it concerning that our government is planning to cut its military spending by $1.4 billion into next year, which will impact our contributions to Ukraine?

4:35 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

Thank you, but I am not in a position to comment on the decisions of the Canadian government.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Operation Reassurance in Latvia is very important. As you said, Ukraine is on the eastern flank of NATO. How important is it that Canada continue to augment its presence in Latvia?

4:35 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

I think I would have more comments when—not if, but when—Ukraine becomes a NATO member. Ukraine then would also be able, with one of the strongest militaries on the European continent, to support NATO security.

For us, it's crucially important to maintain this military support and the training program that was launched back in 2015, the Unifier program, which has already trained over 37,000 Ukrainian troops. That, of course, is very important for us. We appreciate this continued support.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

With your cyber resilience, is there anything you can share with Canada so that we can augment our current capabilities?

4:40 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

Yes. I think there is already co-operation. There's the NATO cybersecurity centre unit, where we are not only getting help but also sharing the experience, which is very important. Cybersecurity attacks are not the same. They don't have the same pattern. Of course, for us, sharing and increasing our own awareness together with the partners is crucially important.

Also, when it comes to digital governance, Ukraine was among the first countries to introduce digital passports. We are building a partnership between one of the Canadian provinces, the Province of Quebec, and our minister of digital infrastructure.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I keep apologizing for interrupting, but I have to.

The final five minutes go to Madame Lambropoulos.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Ambassador, for being here with us during these difficult times to answer some of our questions.

I'd like to know from your perspective what impact Operation Unifier has had on the Ukrainian people and on the armed forces of Ukraine. Whether we're talking about supporting the training of Ukrainian recruits or we're talking about combat engineers assisting in the training of Ukrainian sappers, can you talk about what this support means to the people of Ukraine?

4:40 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

I would say that there are two stages of the program Unifier. One was before the full-scale invasion, when 30,000 Ukrainian troops were trained. All of them, when the war started, were ready. They had been trained, and that helped. That was one of the important milestones in helping our resistance within the very first days of Russia's full-scale invasion.

Then, in terms of the joint training happening in many countries, Unifier is part of the bigger training program that is happening. The core base is the U.K. Interflex program, but there is also a lot of specific training, including of engineers and sappers and the training that covers the usage of new equipment. It is important because, in most of the training of newly conscripted soldiers, we have a totally different strategy from what Russia is doing. First, we train people; then, we equip them with everything they need, and then they go to the front line. That is important, because it helps.

I think what is also important is that, during this program, there is sharing of knowledge and sharing of experiences. Ukrainian soldiers share their knowledge from the real battlefield, from real military strategy, about what is happening and how it works during real war with their Canadian colleagues.

The feedback that I got from many of those who are part of the Unifier program is that this feedback is very important, because it helps to exchange knowledge, and it will definitely increase the readiness of the commanders of both of our countries.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing some of those examples as well, because it makes it more concrete for us.

If you could choose one thing, one way in which Canada has had an impact, the most important or the most effective contribution that Canada has made during this time, what would you say it is?

If it's Operation Unifier, is there something else that's equally important?

4:40 p.m.

Yuliya Kovaliv

It's very hard because, frankly, we are grateful for all of the strong support that Canada is providing to Ukraine, whether it's financial help, the $5 billion of loans that the Canadian government provided to us, the military, the diplomats or support with the sanctions.

It's all important. Fighting the war is not only on the battlefield. We have the battle on the diplomatic field. We have the battle with Russian propaganda trying to undermine support and disunite people. We have the economic fight, because we need to maintain and we need to help people, those who have suffered because of the war and are internally displaced.

It's very hard, and I would say that Ukraine is grateful for that support from Canada, and most importantly from the Canadian people. The way Canadian people helped Ukrainians fleeing the war by opening their houses and opening their hearts is really very important. We are really grateful to all those people.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Madame Lambropoulos.

Ambassador, thank you for all your efforts to join us today. I express, on behalf of the committee—and others have expressed it as well—that we wish you safety and Godspeed. We look forward to seeing you back here doing your work. You represent your nation well. We thank you for it.

With that, we will suspend.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I call the meeting back to order.

We have with us today Mr. Howard Shatz from the RAND Corporation, by video conference. Thank you, sir.

From the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, we have Ihor Michalchyshyn, who is the executive director. He isn't feeling terribly well, so he's at home. We also have Orest Zakydalsky, senior policy adviser, who is here and who, I assume, is going to make the five-minute presentation.

We also have, somewhere in the building, Mr. Perry. Colleagues will note that Mr. Perry was originally not scheduled. There he is. Mr. Perry is here with his Christmas tie on. He has the socks on too. We'll check that out.

I just want to thank Mr. Perry for filling in at the last second. Up until about half an hour prior to the meeting, or maybe even 15 minutes before, it was not at all sure that we were going to be able to get the ambassador. Fortunately, she was able to make a connection and we were able to put in a full hour, but I want thank Mr. Perry for potentially bailing us out.

Again, thank you to all of you.

I'm going to start with Mr. Shatz. Sir, if you could open with a five-minute statement, that would helpful.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Howard Shatz Senior Economist, RAND Corporation

Thank you, and I thank the members of the Standing Committee on National Defence for inviting me to participate.

My comments stem from work recently completed with colleagues at the RAND Corporation. When we started this work on Ukrainian reconstruction, my senior colleague, Ambassador James Dobbins, who had worked in a variety of crisis situations, noticed that two elements were missing from other analysis.

One of those was that the relevant comparison cases for Ukraine reconstruction are those of European reconstruction throughout the 20th century and 21st centuries. There was too much discussion of Iraq and Afghanistan. The second issue was that discussion of security was missing, and without security, reconstruction will not succeed. They go hand in hand.

I'll focus my five minutes on reconstruction. I welcome discussion of security co-operation and security issues in the Q and A.

We looked at a variety of reconstruction events, including natural disasters and Japan after World War II, but we focused on western Europe after World War II, eastern and central Europe after the Cold War, and the western Balkan six after the violent breakup of Yugoslavia. There were a number of useful lessons from the cases for Ukraine.

We found that in all cases, successful reconstruction efforts have involved strong linkages for international trade and international investment, so links to the international economy. They also involved reforms to the domestic business environment to attract investment.

This issue relates to financing. Aid is going to be important. Aid encourages other sources of finance, and it often can cover the highest-risk aspects of reconstruction. Grants or equity injections are far preferred to loans. Historically, aid has provided only a small portion of total funding. Private investment that Ukraine mobilizes from new and existing foreign investors, residents and even—or especially—the Ukrainian diaspora will be essential to successful reconstruction.

Russian assets, both international reserves and private assets frozen in the west, could be an important source of funding. There is a robust debate about that in numerous jurisdictions. However, legal authorities for using them are not on firm ground so far, and there could be consequences for the international financial system. This doesn't mean that they shouldn't be used, but care needs to be taken in how they are used and how they are seized.

The amount of aid provided is only one issue. Donor coordination will be a challenge. It could burden Ukraine and slow reconstruction. Donors should adopt a structure, building off the multi-donor coordination platform that controls donor freelancing. Given the enormity of the task, each major donor should have a full-time, empowered senior coordinator, as well as a senior representative on the ground in daily contact with the Ukrainian government. Periodic donor conferences will not be sufficient.

Finally, in the area of reconstruction, Ukraine's task is as much about reform as it is reconstruction. This is Ukraine's opportunity to reverse 30 years of unsatisfactory economic and political development.

In other cases, reforms were in part driven by donor conditionalities. This will be true here. Conditionalities may include punishments and rewards. The attraction of EU membership should be the prime driver, but not the only driver, of these essential conditionalities.

This effort will take years, if not decades. Waste, fraud, abuse and corruption could erode western support. Ukraine should have, and donors should insist on, a strong inspector general and effective monitoring and evaluation, with data sharing with donors.

Ukraine also is very technologically advanced. Ukraine has the capability, and Canada, the U.S. and other donors should encourage the adoption of end-to-end, real-time monitoring of flows of assistance to the extent possible. An inspector general provides after-the-fact analysis. Real-time monitoring is possible and better ensures that the money is used properly.

The only thing I'll say about security now is that durable security arrangements, supported by the west, will help Ukraine deter and defend against future Russian attacks. However, they'll do more than that. Historically, we have seen that such arrangements give investors the confidence to take risks and make long-term commitments.

Let me move to policy recommendations.

First, Ukraine's supporters, in this case led by the United States, will need to define arrangements for Ukrainian security and credible deterrence. Allies of the United States and Canada can and should play a role in this.

Specific reconstruction needs have yet to be determined, but countries can organize for reconstruction, such as by passing enabling legislation or appointing a senior coordinator. The effort to explain and build support for longer-term policy needs to be carried out jointly across the political spectrum. We often focus on the Marshall plan when looking at previous reconstruction cases. The Marshall plan was not guaranteed to pass Congress. It passed because of a very aggressive bilateral effort in the United States. Such an effort will be needed now.

Steps are needed to maintain the Ukrainian economy to set the stage for a longer-term recovery. Prime among these steps is keeping export pathways open. Partnerships with Ukraine's defence industries may be valuable for NATO and for the Ukrainian economy. There are still significant corporate governance issues to be settled.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Shatz, can I get you to wind up, please?

Thank you.

4:55 p.m.

Senior Economist, RAND Corporation

Howard Shatz

Absolutely.

Certain steps can be taken to prepare for the Berlin recovery conference. I can talk about those in discussion.

I will leave you with the following thought. Ukraine is an advanced, sophisticated country. It should take the lead on setting reconstruction priorities. In this, leadership marshalling money and leadership of the effort organization can be played by the G7, but the priorities should come from Ukraine.

Thanks for the opportunity. I look forward to questions.

I'll close here, Mr. Chair.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, sir.

From the Ukrainian Canadian Congress, we have Mr. Michalchyshyn.

4:55 p.m.

Ihor Michalchyshyn Executive Director, Ukrainian Canadian Congress

I still have my voice left, a little bit.

Thank you for the invitation. I apologize for not being there in person today.

The last time Orest and I were there was in April, some eight months ago. At that time, we had just finished marking the first anniversary of Russia's full-scale genocidal war against Ukraine. Today we are appearing as a second year of war is ending. We will soon be beginning our third.

As the winter approaches, Ukrainian cities and towns are once again facing sustained Russian rocket, missile and air attacks. As we heard from the ambassador, the goal is to knock out Ukrainian civilian infrastructure, power stations and electricity, to freeze and starve Ukrainian people. Unable to conquer Ukraine, Russia will keep trying to make Ukraine unlivable.

In what will be another difficult winter for the Ukrainian people, it's alarming to see reductions in aid to Ukraine. For example, the Kiel Institute for the World Economy reported last week that the global dynamics of support to Ukraine have been slowing. Newly committed aid reached a new low between August and October 2023. This is the lowest level of aid since January 2022, before Russian launched a full-scale invasion.

Of course, I'm sure we're all watching the dramatic developments taking place today in Washington, south of the border, as President Zelenskyy visits with President Biden and the Congress at a time of increased volatility and key questions on the future of American commitment to aiding Ukraine's defence. As Olena Zelenska, the first lady of Ukraine, said just a few days ago, “We really need the help...we cannot get tired of this situation, because if we do, we die.”

Our message to this committee and to all Canadians is this. Do not get tired. We must all guard against the normalization of Russia's war and the normalization of the daily horrors and atrocities that Russia inflicts upon Ukraine and its people.

Your colleagues at the foreign affairs committee recently heard from children rescued from Russian captivity by Ukrainian non-governmental organizations. These stories are excruciating, and their experience is harrowing, but the experience of Ukrainian children tells us that more must be done to increase aid to Ukraine. This will not be happening through negotiations or peace. The result would be the murder of more Ukrainians and further destruction of Ukraine.

I will turn it over to my colleague to complete our remarks.

December 12th, 2023 / 5 p.m.

Orest Zakydalsky Senior Policy Advisor, Ukrainian Canadian Congress

Although support for Ukraine and Ukraine's defence remains robust among Canadians, there are warning signs that there is a small but vocal minority here in Canada that wants Russia to win. This is unfortunate, but it is the reality. In order to fight against it, we must all make the case more forcefully that the least costly way to defend our own country is to provide Ukraine with the weapons and economic aid it needs to win.

In April, when we were last here, we appeared alongside Ambassador Kerry Buck, who stated at the time, “We aren't keeping up our end of the NATO defence spending bargain...and we need to do more.” This remains true today.

The global supply chain of weaponry that's accessible to democratic nations is woefully low. We must produce more in Canada and provide manufacturers with long-term commitments to enable them to do so. We must remember that Ukraine will need to defend itself even after it wins the war. We must also encourage our NATO allies to do the same. We must help the Ukrainians, through partnerships and joint ventures, to produce their own weapons. We need to do more to deliver the equipment the Ukrainians desperately need, and we need to do it more quickly.

We echo President Zelenskyy's words from yesterday: “Ukraine will fight, Ukraine will stand. I’m confident that freedom must always prevail when challenged.”

In April we made three main policy recommendations that we asked this committee to support. These were, first, to substantially increase the delivery of heavy weapons to Ukraine; second, to work with allies to increase the provision of fighter aircraft to Ukraine; and third, to contract with the defence industry to substantially increase production and procurement of armaments and materiel.

These recommendations remain our key asks of this committee today.

Thank you.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Mr. Perry, you have the final five minutes, please.