Evidence of meeting #91 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I bring this meeting to order, particularly now that Mr. Ellis has arrived.
As you'll see, there's been a change in the order.
Minister Blair had a medical issue that's he's attending to today. He fully intends to make himself available as soon as possible. I believe I'm allowed to say that it is as soon as Monday, because he does want to appear on this study.
Also, I want to recognize Ted Opitz, a former member, and a former member of this committee.
Welcome.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay. He is a retired lieutenant-colonel and a retired MP. How long he'll stay retired is another issue.
5:05 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
I don't think there's anything else I need to say.
Mr. Bezan, go ahead.
February 7th, 2024 / 5:05 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Given the fact that the minister isn't available today—I appreciate that he is going to make himself available as soon as possible—and that the witnesses who are currently at the table will be expected to accompany him again, I'd like to move the motion I gave notice of previously:
Given that, the Minister of National Defence is increasing rent for Canadian military personnel this April, and at a time when the military is struggling to recruit and retain personnel, the committee report to the House, that the government immediately cancel all plans to increase rent on military accommodations used by the Department of National Defence this April.
It is so moved.
On Monday, when we had the military ombudsman here at committee, we heard Mr. Lick speak about that fact. He talked about how he visited a number of our bases and heard directly from members of the Canadian Armed Forces.
He said:
I'm hearing it a lot more, and when I bring up the issue and ask, “Do you know someone who is at risk of being homeless or at risk of accessing a food bank?”, everybody nods [during those meetings]. Everybody knows somebody.
We know that charitable organizations are providing money to families, sometimes through the chaplaincy, for them to afford rent and food.
He went on, when questioned by Ms. Mathyssen, to say that it would be “tone-deaf” of the government to increase rents on the Canadian Armed Forces at a time when we hear of them struggling to find proper accommodations and make ends meet.
I know that many of us at committee here have received correspondence from members coast to coast to coast complaining about the conditions of barracks, residential housing units and PMQs, or they are sitting on waiting lists and cannot find proper housing. I have for a fact had correspondence from those who transferred from one province to another, like Nova Scotia—mainly in the city of Halifax—and are living in campers or in their cars. I have received correspondence and heard from parents whose children are in the navy in Esquimalt and have to work two jobs just to pay for a one-bedroom apartment because things are so expensive.
In light of that, I think one thing we can do is support this motion. It allows us to show support for our troops and for those who are struggling to get by.
I know the minister said during question period that the Canadian Armed Forces had done a wellness check. However, as the ombudsman said, there are times when, of course, members would not have the confidence to say this to their commanding officers or to the sergeants in their units, and admit they are homeless or living in precarious situations.
We had testimony in front of a Nova Scotia Legislature special committee on the situation in Halifax. We know there are currently 30 tent encampments across the city of Halifax and there is a possibility there are troops using those tents. We can't leave them literally out in the cold. I think it is incumbent upon us, as members of this committee, to stand up for our troops and call on the government to cancel this rent increase.
We know this is a guideline that comes from Treasury Board. It is tied to market conditions and there is a limitation on how much the members of the Canadian Armed Forces make and how much rent they can be charged. Regardless, I think it's a difficult time in the Canadian situation, with food inflation caused and escalated by the carbon tax charged on groceries. There's the cost of growing food. Even on food that is imported and isn't taxed down in the States or elsewhere, there's carbon tax that has to be paid when it gets trucked into our grocery stores, which makes it more expensive for our troops to go out and buy that food. That's why we're hearing of troops ending up in front of food banks. We hear about charitable organizations providing Christmas hampers to serving members and their families to help them get by.
I think this is something on which there should be agreement around the table. It's a small token we can do for those who are currently living in, and can least afford to be in, accommodation provided by the Canadian Armed Forces through the Canadian Armed Forces housing agency. We know they would appreciate us if we asked the government to cancel the rent increase slated for April 1.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Mr. Bezan.
I have Madame Lalonde, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Kelly and Mrs. Gallant.
Madame Lalonde.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm trying to stay serious, considering the intention of what this member is asking. I'm looking back at some of the records of what they voted against. In December, they voted against pay increases for our military. I always find it a bit ironic, Mr. Chair, to see this kind of...you know.
I think the intent of the motion is not a bad one. On this side of the House, we take our military seriously. We take Ukraine very seriously. We are actually moving forward on this investment. The Prime Minister mentioned today our investment of over $400 million for housing.
Since we have witnesses here, and out of respect for our colleague who brought forward the motion, I would propose some very slight and, I'll say, very light amendments that we could debate, or we could hold this thought, hear from the witnesses, and come back to this at some point during this committee.
I really want to be respectful to my colleague and to our officials who are here and made the time to come. At the same time, I very much agree that our military needs the support it deserves. That's why we voted for that pay increase, unlike the Conservative Party.
At this point, Mr. Chair, I would like to know what we can do, according to our clerk. I would like to hear our officials on the study that's in front of us, or I could bring an amendment now. I will leave to your discretion what the best way is of handling this.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
If you're going to move an amendment, you have to move the amendment. We'll then debate the amendment and go back to the main motion.
Is that what you wish to do?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
I will definitely bring my amendment.
I apologize to the officials. I hope I have the co-operation of my colleagues so that we can move on quickly.
Mr. Chair, the original text reads, “Given that, the Minister of National Defence is increasing rent for Canadian military personnel”. I would like to scratch “the Minister of National Defence is increasing” and replace it. After the words “given that”, we would be removing “the Minister of National Defence is increasing”. After the words “Canadian military personnel”, we would add the words “living on base is increasing”. After the words “this April”, we would add, “that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee request a comprehensive government response.”
For the interpretation and for my colleagues, I will read the amended text to all of you.
It would read, “Given that, rent for Canadian military personnel living on base is increasing this April, and at a time when the military is struggling to recruit and retain personnel, the committee report to the House, that the government immediately cancel all plans to increase rent on military accommodations used by the Department of National Defence this April and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee requests a comprehensive government response.”
I'm sorry. We'd be removing “this April.”
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay. The amendment is in order. The debate is on the amendment.
Next, we recognize Mr. Fisher on the amendment.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
I'll begin by asking to clarify the beginning of the amendment so that I understand it correctly. The amendment is to strike the words “the Minister of National Defence is increasing”. What is that being replaced with? Is it just struck out?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
It would read, “Given that rent for Canadian military personnel living on base is increasing”.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Yes, and then we would also strike “this April” after “the Department of National Defence” and add “and that pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee request a comprehensive government response.”
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
I'll keep it quick then. I think I prefer it unamended.
Again, as the defence ombudsman confirmed in response to one of my questions the other day, making the distinction as to which minister in this government is responsible for raising the rent is not material to the struggles in day-to-day life of military personnel who are living paycheque to paycheque and who are unable to access housing, particularly in Halifax, as we've heard.
While a comprehensive report from the government might be warranted, I would rather have this debated with respect to concurrence in the House of Commons and have members of the House of Commons vote on this motion and stand up and be counted for their constituents as to whether or not they support increasing rent on Canadian Forces personnel.
With that, I'll let it go.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Thank you.
Besides the Minister of National Defence, I'm wondering if there's another minister we should refer to. It's really critical that we pass this, amended or not, because otherwise the soldiers in the barracks are actually going to be getting less for more rent, given that over the weekend we found out that 75 of our cleaning employees had lost their jobs and received their last cheque—if it even clears, because they've been bouncing for months now. This may be a matter for procurement, but something certainly doesn't add up. The people working for minimum wage can barely make ends meet, so now in addition to all the responsibilities the soldiers have, they'll be responsible for cleaning out their communal living areas as well.
I would request that we delete the amendment, unless, for “the Minister of National Defence is increasing rent”, we put whichever minister is responsible for that instead.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON
Yes. I don't support that part of it, unless we—
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Okay.
I think it's Mr. Ellis, Mr. Bezan, Madame Lalonde and Madame Normandin.
