National Defence Committee on Feb. 7th, 2024

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

I think it's hard to follow the last two speakers. Ms. Mathyssen, I think that may have been your best.

James, you and I have been friends for eight years. We've travelled together. You are not a munitions expert; you didn't serve. I have no idea where all of the stuff you just said came from. You could have made every bit of that up, and you could have really seriously put lives at risk.

I think this is a great idea, if they are safe. We've said we will help Ukraine, or at least our side of the House has said we'll do everything we can to help Ukraine. However, let's not just rush into this. As Lindsay said, let's make sure we do the right things for the right reasons. If these things are still good and we can use them, why wouldn't we want to help Ukraine to every extent?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mr. Kelly, do you have something explosive to say?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

No, I'm going to begin by pointing out that I think Mr. Bezan does have some credentials around this table. Mr. Bezan has done Mr. McKay's job. He's done Madame Lalonde's job. He's been at this committee for a very long time, and he actually listens and pays attention to witnesses. He reads the reports. Mr. Bezan did not claim to be an authority on ordnance, but what Mr. Bezan knows, and what we know, is that the Ukrainian government has asked us to do this.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

We were doing it.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I'm going to ask you to maybe rein in the government's parliamentary secretary here when I have the floor.

Again, this is something the Ukrainian government has asked for. We are not suggesting there are not logistical concerns to be dealt with. We are merely asking this committee to endorse what the Government of Ukraine has asked of Canada—that's all we're asking of this committee. Surely, that's not too hard for us. Surely, the Ukrainian government is aware of the risks involved in acquiring munitions that have been slated for decommission, and they understand and accept those risks. In their judgment, this is something that's material to their war effort and something we ought to support at this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We have Mrs. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

We're hearing that the government is getting equipment over there, but what we're hearing on the ground is that the equipment is sent overseas, but it doesn't get into Ukraine, because the foreign affairs minister doesn't put the final signature. They have some anathema to lethal weaponry, and it's costing lives.

For the first two years of this conflict, we were told this was Putin's expansionism; it was his attempt to reconstitute the USSR. However, now the ambassadors are telling us that this is part of a rebalancing of the power in the world, and that what Putin is actually doing is not looking to invade individual countries for the sake of it and rebuild his old empire, but to destabilize the west, take down our institutions. This is far more serious. They are fighting the war on their land so we don't have to lose blood and treasury on our soil.

All that being said, I know the Liberals actually said yesterday that they like to put the cart before the horse, and that's exactly what they did with a free trade agreement that wasn't needed, because if we don't have a Ukraine, there's no country to have a free trade agreement with—which we didn't need anyway.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Mrs. Gallant, the motion is whether Canada is going to ship the specified munitions to Ukraine. It's not a geopolitical discussion. It's not about anything to do with whether you like the carbon tax or you don't.

Perhaps you could focus your comments on the motion itself that's in front of us.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Ukraine has asked for the ammunition. It's old. We don't need it. They can make something of it: recycle it, reuse it and keep their country. They are fighting the fight for all of us. Let's give them the tools, the equipment and the ammunition that they need to do so. This motion allows some of that to be done.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Now we have Mr. Bezan, followed by Madame Normandin, Madame Lalonde and Mr. Noormohamed.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

First of all, I don't think anybody argues with my experience in Ukraine and the people I know in Ukraine. I was contacted through back channels in December and was asked for our political support for a request from the military. Before I moved forward with this, I did all my background checking to ensure that they can be utilized, that they haven't been already contracted for decommissioning, and that there is a way to get them there safely. I have had conversations with the manufacturer. I've had conversations with those in the military and those who are familiar with rockets. I've also had conversations with the Government of Ukraine.

I have in front of me a letter from Lieutenant-General Kyrylo Budanov, and I should say that there are some stories out that he may be the next chief of defence of the Ukrainian armed forces, with the changes that are taking place there right now. He is the chief of the defence intelligence of Ukraine.

I'll read his letter into the record, if that's okay, Mr. Chair: “Canada has been a solid ally to Ukraine. I express my gratitude on behalf of Ukraine. Operation UNIFIER has been invaluable and increased our war fighter survivability on the front as they have passed on the skills the Canadian Armed Forces taught. My international team recently met with defence attaché Nicolas Gauthier to discuss our request for the retired CRV7 rockets. I understand that of the 83,000 CRV7 rockets, there is a high percentage that is not functional. However, Ukraine desperately needs munitions, and we have put a task force together to examine each of them if Canada is willing to entertain our request. The task force has identified the equipment needed to update and arm them. We hope to collaborate with the OEM, and will work on the CRV7s in Ukraine at our munitions facility. They will be extremely valuable. I sincerely hope that Canada will consider my request. I want to reiterate my deep gratitude to Canada and its people for the continued support received. We cannot defend ourselves against Russia without it.” That's dated November 24, 2023.

Then, two days ago on Global News, he did another interview, and he is again urging the government to let Ukraine have the decommissioned CRV7 rockets:

Doing so would help Ukraine fend off Russian forces and save taxpayers the cost of destroying them, said Lt. Gen. Budanov, chief of the Ukrainian defence ministry’s intelligence directorate.

“We hope it will be a win-win situation,” he said.

He's aware of the state of the rockets. He knows that they can utilize them. These rockets will have to be transported some place. They can't sit at CFD Dundurn in perpetuity. They're just collecting dust, and they potentially could become unstable and create an even bigger problem for the Canadian Armed Forces if they're sitting in storage.

Let's utilize them. They were used by the Canadian Armed Forces up until 2009. I think there is an opportunity here. As General Budanov said, it's a win-win. It's a win for Canada, a win for the Canadian Armed Forces and, ultimately, a win for Ukraine.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Normandin.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I really do not claim to be an expert on munitions, but based on my reading of the motion, it is not asking that the CRV7 rockets be taken to Ukraine tomorrow morning. It's asking for them to be made available to Ukraine.

From what I understand from the media, the Department of National Defence is already conducting studies on the safe transportation of munitions, but regardless of what happens, to decommission them, they will have to be transported and a safety check will have to be done. It's going to happen anyway.

As I understand the motion, it simply asks that these munitions be made available to Ukraine. I also understand that no one is going to move them tomorrow morning without doing further checks. In that sense, I feel comfortable voting for the motion as written, with confidence in the department that this will be done safely, if it is done.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Madame Lalonde, go ahead.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I'll let others speak and I'll come back, if that's all right.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

Mr. Noormohamed, welcome to the committee. I'm sure you're enjoying yourself immensely.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I am. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I've been very interested in this conversation, particularly with respect to what we're now discussing. I'm just reflecting a little bit on the comments we've heard from Conservatives about how we should do what President Zelenskyy and Ukraine have asked us to do. I think it's important, especially for those of us who may have forgotten—and all of you on this committee may be much more familiar with this—what we have done in terms of the military side of supporting Ukraine.

Since February, I think there has been about $2.4 billion in military assistance, including air defence missiles. I think there are surface-to-air missile systems. We've seen Leopard battle tanks. There have been 208 armoured vehicles—more than that, almost 300 armoured vehicles now. We've had howitzers, ammunition, drone cameras, the whole nine yards. Whatever Ukraine has asked for, thus far, we have given.

What I am really surprised by, though, is that we're hearing from Conservatives that we should do what Ukraine has asked, whereas they voted against a free trade agreement that Ukraine asked us to take part in. They voted against funding for Operation Unifier. I find it really rich for us to be sitting here talking about decommissioned rockets that may or may not work, that may or may not pose a threat to Canadian military personnel who may have to ship them over. We don't know if they're going to work properly or not, so from a party that has done—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Excuse me, Mr. Noormohamed.

I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble following what you're saying, because Mrs. Lalonde and Ms. Mathyssen, to a lesser extent, are carrying on a conversation that makes it difficult for those of us who wish to listen.

Please continue. Thank you, sir.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're hearing that they really want us to listen to what the Ukrainians are asking for, what President Zelenskyy is asking for. In his own words, President Zelenskyy asked us for a trade deal, which our government and Liberals and New Democrats and the Bloc supported. The Conservatives chose not to support it. He said he wanted funding for Operation Unifier. We stood up in the House and we supported that. Conservatives, including members of this committee who are sitting across, voted against it.

We have given the military supports that Ukraine has asked for. In this particular case, they are making a case for rockets that may or may not work, that may or may not pose a threat to the Canadians who would have to take them over. I think we need to do all the investigative work that needs to be done before we ask to send things over.

However, I do think it is important for Canadians to understand that the people across the way, the Conservatives who are asking us to do the things President Zelenskyy is asking us to do, should be looking at themselves in the mirror and asking themselves and their leader why they were instructed to vote against funding for Operation Unifier and why they were instructed to vote against a trade agreement that President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian people asked us to take part in—not once, not twice, but every single time.

I think they have a lot of explaining to do, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Noormohamed.

Go ahead, Mr. Collins.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

You know, when I looked at the motion here today, it was hard for me to contain my emotion because I have a very large Ukrainian community in Hamilton East—Stoney Creek. I have a very large Ukrainian community in Hamilton. The votes that my colleague just referenced were slights not just to the Ukrainian president and his government, but also to all those Ukrainians we have living here in Canada. They were slights to the 200,000-plus Ukrainians we've let into the country.

When I read this motion here, it rings hollow, because the member opposite and all the people who are sitting beside him had the opportunity to support Ukraine. They chose not to.

I completely get the politics associated with this in terms of the Leader of the Opposition and his quest to follow President Trump and the alt-right conservative movement in the United States—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have a point of order.

Mr. Chair, you started off pretty good about keeping everybody in line, but we've gone way off here. You have to rein these guys in.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I appreciate that. I don't disagree. I have called the others to order.

We are dealing with a motion about munitions. I can appreciate that President Trump is a rather explosive personality, but I'm pressed to know how he—

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I was trying to make the point, Mr. Chair, that the Leader of the Opposition has consistently undermined our efforts to support Ukraine. Whether you want me to use the word “Trump” or not.... I can certainly avoid that comparison.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I want your thoughts on the motion.