Evidence of meeting #91 for National Defence in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Mr. Chair, I have to take offence at the accusations coming from the other side that Conservatives don't support Ukraine. As someone of Ukrainian heritage, I take that very personally, especially for all the work that I've done over the years in standing up for Ukraine.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
No. I'm going to move the following motion, which I've already given notice of. It has been 48 hours.
I move:
That given the Ukrainian Armed Forces are in desperate need of more munitions, and the Armed Forces of Ukraine have officially requested Canada donate surplus CRV7 rockets to Ukraine to aid them in defending their sovereign territory from Russia's illegal invasion, and that given the Canadian Armed Forces are in possession of 83,000 CRV7 rockets that are slated for decommissioning and will cost taxpayers' money to dispose of, therefore the Committee report to the House that the Government of Canada immediately donate all surplus CRV7 rockets to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Mr. Chair, there is a letter that has been circulating online. I think everybody saw it. The Ukrainian armed forces made a request, back on November 24, to the government through the Canadian military attaché in our embassy in Kyiv, knowing that we have these antiquated CRV7 rockets.
Just so everybody is aware, the CRV7 rockets were actually originally manufactured by Bristol Aerospace at the Rockwood propellant plant, which, interestingly enough, is in my riding. These rockets were all built between 1984 and 1994. We're talking about rockets that are 30 to 40 years old.
The Ukrainians realize, as do the Canadian Armed Forces, that they are in a situation where these could be becoming destabilized. Twice now, the Canadian Armed Forces has issued RFPs to decommission and dispose of the rockets. There are hazardous materials in them, such as asbestos, TNT and C4—
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Mr. Chair, could I interrupt with a point or order?
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
With all due respect, James, can we release the witnesses, then?
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
They're very important people who are sitting here. You could have 15 of these motions.
Can we just release our witnesses?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Are we content with that? Okay.
Apparently, we're not going to hear from experts today.
I want to thank all of you for your patience. We appreciate your consideration. No doubt we will see you again. We don't know when.
Thank you for your—
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
No, this is the way the system works, so we're not apologizing. They all know. Mr. Fisher apologized and Madame Lalonde apologizes, but the chair is not apologizing.
With that, thank you again for your presence here.
Let's stop with the bickering and focus on what Mr. Bezan has to say.
Mr. Bezan, are you finished?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
No. I will carry on.
I appreciate that and I thank our witnesses for coming today. I look forward to seeing them soon, along with the minister.
I will stay on topic, rather than go off it. On these CRV7 rockets, the letter that has been circulated online shows that the Ukrainian military is aware of the status of these munitions, but wants all of them. If they can be transported to Ukraine, the military will go through the stockpile and use what it can, taking parts from the other rocket motors to build more rockets and utilize whatever warheads we have in our inventory.
These are all sitting around, collecting dust at CFAD Dundurn, south of Saskatoon. It's going to cost the taxpayers of Canada millions of dollars to dispose of these rockets. Some estimates I've heard are over $30 million for the disposal of these 83,000 rockets. Rather than waste taxpayers' money and have to go through the whole process again of trying to find some entity in Canada or the United States that will dispose of these rockets, let's give them to the Ukrainian military. Let them use these rockets to defend their homeland. Let them push back on the Russian invaders.
All the talk around carbon pricing and carbon taxes.... We, as Conservatives, don't support the carbon tax, and that's why we voted against the Canada-Ukraine Free Trade Agreement. Look, we are the party of free trade. We negotiated the first free trade agreement. Guess what? Bill C-57 has passed, so let's do the next best thing right now, which is sending over the munitions and supplies that Ukraine needs.
The government has made lots of announcements about munitions, and we keep hearing about how, over 12 months ago, in January 2023, promises were made to buy NASAMS, a national advanced surface-to-air missile system, from an American contractor for $406 million to defend the airspace in Ukraine. Guess what? The NASAMS has not been ordered, 12 months after the fact, and nobody knows where the $406 million is. Zelenskyy has asked for the NASAMS over and over again, and it's still not there. They need it to defend their airspace.
For those of us who follow what's happening in the war in Ukraine, things are getting desperate. The Russians continue to push. Avdiivka is going to be the next city to fall. The Ukrainians have positioned their Leopard tanks and Bradley tanks, as well as the Abrams tanks they have, to try to hold the line against the brutal Russian military.
This is a chance for us to do some good, send over these missiles and make a difference.
They have already said—maybe you have seen the Global News story that was out on Monday—that they have built ground launchers to use these rockets from to help them defend territory. They are also interested in putting them on their drones.
We know this war has changed the entire doctrine around warfare. I don't think anyone thought we would go back to tank warfare, but that's what this has turned into. Nobody thought drones would be used to the effect that they have been. Nobody thought the Russian air force would ever be able to achieve air dominance and air superiority over Ukrainian airspace.
We saw just recently, again, maritime surface drones used by the Ukrainian military taking down a Russian missile cruiser—a corvette. It was only hit with about two or three drones and sank. Another ship—
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
That is on the motion. I'm talking about Ukraine and defending Ukraine. The CRV rockets can be used in these drones. That's what I'm getting at, Mr. Chair.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
The CRV rockets are going to be used in drones, whether they be maritime drones or aerial drones. There is this huge opportunity to provide some major capacity to Ukraine, especially as our own munitions production of things like 155-millimetre rounds is still stuck at 2,000 to 3,000 a month. The Americans are just ramping up theirs to double up to 100,000 rounds a month. Europeans haven't stepped up.
These are munitions and supplies that Ukraine needs. I encourage everyone on the committee to support the donation of these surplus weapons, which are slated for disposal anyway. They aren't of any use to the Canadian Armed Forces, since we've moved to guided missile systems like the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-9X Sidewinder missiles.
This is, in my opinion, a good use of taxpayer money by saving it and not using it to dispose of these weapons. It will be greatly appreciated by the Ukrainian military and the citizens of Ukraine, who are trying to save their country from Putin's war machine.
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'm not inherently opposed to this motion, per se, or of course sending munitions to Ukraine and helping Ukraine. To an earlier point made by Mr. Fisher and Mrs. Lalonde, I think the member doth protest too much. They're very defensive. Conservatives have now voted against the Ukraine free trade agreement, and the support to Operation Unifier in December. Obviously, they're trying to save face, to some degree. I think that's a problem.
Certainly, we haven't the ability to talk about increasing humanitarian aid or putting further sanctions on Putin, which I think we need to do. With these arms, my concern here—Mr. Bezan even said it clearly—is that these aren't stable. They're dangerous. DND and CAF personnel have—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Mrs. Lalonde and Mr. Bezan, perhaps you could carry on your conversation somewhere else other than in the committee.
Ms. Mathyssen, you have the floor.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to send Ukraine the help they need. That's why I voted for Operation Unifier and the support to the humanitarian aid missions. But CAF and DND have to go through the time period they need in order to make really careful examinations of what they can or cannot send. What would happen—I would love to hear from my Conservatives colleagues here—if there was an accident during transport? Who would be responsible for that? How could we live with ourselves if that was the case?
Ultimately, yes, these are dangerous times, but I don't think you go forward willy-nilly and say, well, to cover my own butt, I'm going to put this forward.
NDP
Lindsay Mathyssen NDP London—Fanshawe, ON
Well, let's say “behind”. I'm not going to do that just so that I can save face.
I would really love to hear what the contingency plan on that is, with this motion, if there are problems and if there are tragic issues.
Liberal
Liberal
Marie-France Lalonde Liberal Orléans, ON
Mr. Chair, I really appreciate being able to follow up on this a little bit with my colleagues.
First of all, the department, CAF, is doing exactly this. We did identify just over 83,000 units of the CRV rocket motors for disposal. One thing that I think we are all collectively acknowledging is that they have been in storage for many years. I would be very displeased and very concerned if there were unintended consequences, for our own forces or the Ukrainians we want to support, from any decision that can be made. I think we can all agree that the assessment is important.
We also want to make sure that they actually work. Like my colleague, I am certainly not an expert. I do believe in our DND. I believe in our CAF. I believe in their expertise. They are looking at this and following the way forward.
We need to make sure, to Ms. Mathyssen's point, that these don't actually explode in transport. That would actually put our own troops at risk. I will not pretend to be the expert. That's why, for me, the intent is that the department is doing this. We are assessing, as we always have as a government, with the support of most of the House. Sadly, recently one party did not. We collectively want to help Ukraine. We said that we will be there for as long as it takes. We voted in support. Already $2.4 billion has been committed and is continuing.
Mr. Chair, again, on the intent of.... With the epiphany of the Conservatives, I really want to make sure that we're not putting anyone at risk, especially not our own troops or Ukrainian troops.
Thank you.