National Defence Committee on Feb. 7th, 2024

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

No problem.

This motion is about support for Ukraine. I think every single person who spoke around this table has referenced the fact that this motion represents support for Ukraine. It is hard to sit here with a straight face and look at the members opposite, who have consistently voted against Ukraine recently. The great thing about our parliamentary system is that everything we do here is on tape. It's all on video. There is no guessing in terms of what people's positions are, whether you want it or not.

For me, listening to some of the debates and the points across the way about this being all for support of Ukraine, it just really rings hollow. It took the Leader of the Opposition almost two years, I think, to reference the word “Ukraine”. It wasn't until we got to the free trade debate that the Leader of the Opposition could bring himself to say the word “Ukraine” in the House. I think that speaks volumes in terms of where their party is at now.

I was reading an article here, as the discussion was taking place, about when our support for Ukraine and project Unifier started—under former prime minister Harper. Wow, how things have changed in terms of where the party opposite is at right now as it relates to its lack of support for Ukraine.

I'll reiterate that to listen to the comments that have been made across the table, as they relate to providing support for Ukraine in this instance with ammunition, is a tough one because they had every opportunity to support not just the Government of Ukraine, but the citizens of Ukraine who live here in Canada, with $500 million in December. They chose to vote against it. They had the opportunities that others have referenced to support Ukraine and the citizens of Ukraine here in Canada with support for the free trade agreement. They decided to vote against it.

They will find every wiggle word they can to try to squirm their way out of these debates. They'll find every little excuse as to why they didn't support it. Now they've come to the committee with something that says they're in support of Ukraine. I think their actions speak louder than their words, Mr. Chair.

There were a number of votes recently. We can see where the Leader of the Opposition is taking his party. It is undermining the support of NATO. It is undermining the support of our allies. It is undermining Ukraine.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have a point of order.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'll leave it at that because you can tell that—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have a point of order.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I'd love for them to keep bringing Ukraine motions because it allows us to talk about—

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I have a point of order.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I recognize your point of order.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

I would rather you had recognized it on a more timely basis and shut this down.

You were very narrow on relevance early on this motion. I'd like you to continue to be narrow on relevance.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you.

I will continue to interpret this the way I see fit.

We have Ms. Mathyssen up next.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

I come to the point that I made before. I am really concerned. I'm hoping there is an amendment that will be coming forward shortly because I'm concerned about the wording that Mr. Bezan is going forward with.

He acknowledges that the CRV7s are dangerous. He talked about not wanting them to just sit on a base, but the fact is that that's not what's going to happen to them. Ultimately, there is an agreement right now that they are supposed to be transported to a disposal company. They will be kept in a facility where it's safe. We have to negotiate.... I am fine that the Canadian government would potentially negotiate, if it's all done safely, for them not to go forward with that disposal, but that was the whole process. Just providing these slogans that Conservatives have, just to cover, without any further explanation, is dangerous. To just say, “Well, let's get them off our plate” and send them to somebody else without actually thinking that through is highly irresponsible.

Until I see some further language on this motion that talks about the assurance that we are not just offloading our dangerous ammunitions that are problematic onto somebody else who is in a desperate situation and taking advantage of that desperation, I can't.... They may want them, but they want them to be safe. They need them to be safe, and we need to ensure, in terms of our relationship with the Ukrainians, that we respect that relationship and that we ensure that it's safe. We don't just offload our problem onto them.

I don't see that language here now, and until I see it, I don't understand how this committee could actually have the conscience to move forward with this.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Go ahead, Mrs. Lalonde.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

I thank you, because we do have, on this committee, military personnel who actually served. I would agree on the safety and the transport.

Mr. Chair, I'm just going to say that I almost came forward to bring an amendment to show our experts here in this committee how working together means having these discussions, but probably not overall tonight. Maybe we should bring an amendment to allow the member, Mr. Bezan, to be authorized by the committee to travel to inspect the munitions so we can guarantee that they are safe to travel.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

However, I will not do this because, for me, this committee was a serious committee when I joined. I know that our force, our military, wants us to improve.

Ukraine needs our help. We have consistently made a point of the support that we have provided, and my colleagues have made this point. My colleagues have also made reference to how the leader of the official opposition has referred to a faraway country. The Conservatives have voted against every measure in support of Ukraine.

Mr. Chair, I will be proposing an amendment, and I hope my colleagues will understand the seriousness of this committee and everything that we do going forward. We have been there for Ukraine. We'll continue to be there. This is my proposed amendment, and I hope it will make this committee happy, as well as our military who are here and Ms. Mathyssen. I would like to add, at the end of the final sentence of Mr. Bezan's motion, “provided that they are safe for transport and are operationally effective.”

The reason I'm saying this is that we need to make sure not only that they are safe and that they don't blow up somewhere else where we don't want them to blow up, but that they are safe to be transported across other countries. We also need to make sure that the other countries are comfortable with this. Again, I am certainly not the expert, but I would like to propose this amendment so that people out there see the seriousness of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Let me just make it clear. Just so we all understand, it is “provided that they are safe for transport and are operationally effective.” That would be the addition.

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Can I speak to the amendment?

First of all, I was going to suggest some rewording. Instead of saying “immediately donate”, we'll say “to safely donate and transport”.

I would also just add that I didn't appreciate the slam. I know where Dundurn is. I'll drive there if I need to. It's not far from Manitoba.

They want the other rockets, though, even if they are not functional, because they can use them for parts. There is a request from the Ukrainian armed forces for everything that can be disposed of.

Mr. Chair, I'm not opposed to the safety part. In my research on this, there are NATO and UN standards that we have to meet for the safety aspect of transport. We know that these will end up going into Ukraine from Poland, so they have to meet the NATO and UN standards for safe transportation.

I'll also just say, based upon the reformative intervention by Mr. Collins and that line, that I would like to remind them about all the broken Liberal promises to Ukraine.

They promised, on September 22, 2022, 35 high-resolution drone cameras valued at $76 million—not delivered. This is all factual information from the Department of Defence's own web page, where you can track everything that's been promised and what's been delivered. On November 24, 2022, there were 11,000 assault rifles and machine guns with nine million rounds—not delivered. I've already talked about the January 10, 2023 NASAMS, worth $406 million, that were not delivered. On June 10, 2023, 10,000 105-millimetre rounds—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You're starting to wander away from—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

—and 250 AIM-7 air defence missiles were not delivered. You can sit there and give all the nice words and announcements, but you guys aren't delivering.

This is a chance for all of us to get together. These are things that can easily be certified, packed up and shipped over. Ukraine has asked for this stuff. You guys have said you're going to send it, and it hasn't even been sent.

How is that helping?

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

You don't have to explain it to me. You have to explain it to your constituents.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Do we think we want to carry on bickering back and forth for the balance of the time, or do we want to actually deal with the motion as proposed and with the amendment?

I have two speakers left. They are Mr. Fisher and Madame Lalonde.

Okay. Mr. Fisher is done. Madame Lalonde is done.

I see no other speakers.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Chair, could we reread the motion?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We'll vote on the amendment first.

Can you read it, so we all know what we're talking about?

[The Clerk]

Absolutely.

Unfortunately, I have only the English version.

The amendment would add at the end of the motion, after “to the Armed Forces of Ukraine”, “provided that they are safe for transport and are operationally effective”.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We're now on the motion as amended.

(Motion as amended agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0 [See Minutes of Proceedings])