National Defence Committee on Feb. 12th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fisher.

Ms. Normandin, go ahead for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to express my condolences to Shelby Kramp-Neuman.

Thank you for being here, Minister. It's good to see you doing well.

I would like to start with questions about a newspaper article published in September. The article was about a report by the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner in which he mentioned that the Department of National Defence had violated the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act. The report found that, contrary to the requirements of the act, the Department of National Defence, in a number of cases, did not inform whistle-blowers of the outcome of their requests or publish on its website the result of those requests when they led to a finding of wrongdoing. These were whistle-blowers who had filed complaints in 2015, and it took a slap on the wrist for Commissioner Joe Friday in 2020-21 for that to finally be published.

Do you think this is a result of an internal management problem at the Department of National Defence or a cultural problem?

To solve the problem, we must be able to identify it clearly.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I have officials here with me today who are very much involved in cultural change within the Canadian military, but as to the circumstances of the case to which you just referred, I really don't have any insight. I apologize for not having an insight into what took place between 2015 and 2021.

With respect to that information and how it was dealt with, if I may—because I would like to be able to answer it—I'll turn to the deputy minister, who can provide some insight.

[Bill Matthews]

Thank you for the question, Ms. Normandin.

First of all, the case in question concerned public servants, not military members. At that time, there was a lack of information on how many cases were open and how frequent they were. We have a number of new managers now, and one of their tasks is to compile a list of all the cases and all the questions.

We now have a better handle on the number of cases that were being investigated. I will say that because of the sensitivity of these cases, the people who look at them are very much sensitive to sharing information, because you do want to protect the people who raised the information.

I would say there was a lack of centralization and digitization of the cases, so we are now actively tracking those numbers and cases. They were really the key recommendations of Mr. Friday in his report.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Matthews.

That still led Mr. Friday to adopt the position that the department had not complied with the act.

I would like to come back to the work of public servants.

The Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics recently mentioned that there was likely too much closeness between public servants and the minister's office, as a result of which public servants rely more on the chain of command and compliance rather than being neutral in providing advice to the minister. For example, the ombudsman reports directly to the minister's office rather than to Parliament.

Is the closeness of public servants and ministers' offices a problem, given that more transparency is desired? We also want public servants to disclose wrongdoing, to voice their grievances, and to talk about problems that could undermine the department's reputation.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

First of all, let me provide you with some reassurance. I've been a minister in a number of different governments. I think I understand my responsibility as a minister of this government, my responsibility to Canadians and Parliament, and in my role, I do—and my officials do—work closely with both the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. However, I also understand my responsibility for holding them to account and for working very closely with a number of different officials—for example, our public complaints commissioner, the ombudsman and others—to ensure there is truly effective oversight representing the best interests of Canadians generally and certainly members of both the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.

There is, I think, a question. It's a question of Parliament. We have an ombudsman for the military. I've met with him. I've also met most recently with the commissioner of complaints. We've talked about the importance of her work, and we have very good lines of communication.

I believe that our operations require independent oversight, governance and accountability, and that includes transparency. I believe very much in those principles. I've talked to officials who have those responsibilities within the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces to reinforce to them the importance of their work and my support for their work.

On the decision as to whether or not an ombudsman should report to the minister or to Parliament, that's a decision of Parliament. Quite frankly, I would respect the decision of Parliament, but my undertaking as the minister responsible for National Defence is to work as effectively as possible with the ombudsman to make sure that we fulfill our obligations, particularly to the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces but also to Canadians, and make sure we are as transparent as possible in doing that work.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ms. Normandin, you have 15 seconds left.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I won't have time to ask my question, but I would like to invite the minister to look at what is happening at the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Serious allegations have been made about the lack of independence of certain public servants from various ministers, in general, which prevents them from speaking openly about situations involving harassment or racism, among other things, that are taking place in various offices.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Madam Normandin. Well done.

You have six minutes, Ms. Mathyssen.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you to the minister for appearing today.

I too would like to send my condolences to Mrs. Kramp-Neuman and her family. With a parliamentarian in the family, I understand what that can do in terms of being a public face.

Minister, just to pick up from where Madam Normandin was speaking, I'm very excited to hear that you believe in the independence of the ombudsman. In fact, I'm sure you know that I tabled a bill just last fall, Bill C‑362, to establish the office of the ombudsman for defence and to have him or her, whoever it may be in the future, report directly to Parliament.

On your statement saying that you would like to take that to Parliament, you could, absolutely. I, sadly, am not very early on the list of precedence for private members' bills, but certainly the government could introduce that at any time. To adopt that bill would give the ombudsman the truly independent view that he himself has asked for and that his predecessor asked for.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be clear, and as I said, this is a decision of Parliament and I respect the decisions of Parliament. My responsibility is to work with the ombudsman under the current legislative framework. We are doing just that. I think that's important, but—

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

You can introduce legislation. You've talked about it, actually.

In terms of that larger bill you were talking about, could the independent ombudsman in my legislation be made a part of yours?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

To be quite frank, that is not currently contemplated in the legislation that I hope to bring forward in the next couple of weeks.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That is too bad.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

However, there are some very important recommendations we have been responding to. These speak to the independence of our actors. They flow from recommendations in Morris Fish's report with respect to independence, particularly of certain judicial actors. It's something I'm hoping to address in legislation as an appropriate response to that. I believe it's important for credibility, particularly for the judicial and enforcement actors, in order to ensure they are not only independent but also seen to be independent of the chain of command and the minister's office.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

It's disappointing, though, because ultimately the independence of the ombudsman could, in fact, be elevated. It could help with that transparency we were talking about.

There have been stories about this. We hear in the media about those nil responses and lack of transparency. I'm thinking about the specific story David Pugliese brought forward in The Ottawa Citizen when he got a nil response for an ATIP. He then received the information separately. It wasn't that there weren't documents available. They were, in fact, available.

The option on that transparency, from what I hear, isn't necessarily from journalists. It's from those within the CAF and DND themselves who are looking for answers. A lot of that is because of those who have suffered sexual misconduct. They're looking into their own cases. They're desperately trying to get information about themselves that hasn't been released. One of the ways they can do that, if they are faced with that lack of information, is go back to the ombudsman for support.

Again, we come back to the importance of the ombudsman.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Well, first of all, I would go back and acknowledge completely the importance of ensuring we provide all the supports appropriate and necessary to victims of sexual harassment and sexual assault within the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have also been working very hard to give them other opportunities to pursue their complaints and find a resolution. We're making significant investments in the supports they require as victims. For example, instead of having to exhaust all grievance procedures, they can go now directly to the Canadian Human Rights Commission to have those matters investigated. We've been working very hard to ensure those processes work more appropriately and in a speedier way.

As to giving them access to those files and that information, I think under the current system some of them have faced challenges, but we are seeing fairly significant improvements as we respond to the recommendations of Justice Arbour and Justice Fish. We've made it a very significant priority to deal more appropriately with men and women who experience sex-related offences within the Canadian Armed Forces to ensure we can resolve those matters more appropriately, more speedily and, frankly, more caringly.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

You have about 40 seconds.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

We all know significant budget cuts are coming. We've talked about that here in the committee. It's about a billion dollars. In all of those initiatives you're putting forward to improve transparency and independence—the programs, software and so on—how are you ensuring those budget cuts don't impact the level of transparency coming out of your ministry?

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I've made it crystal clear to the officials at both DND and the CAF that the spending controls we're putting in place are not in any way to impact either the capability of the Canadian Armed Forces or the supports we provide to the men and women who serve.

There are a number of recommendations coming forward from the department. We're looking at various professional services, but there are certain professional services our members rely on, so we're not looking at cuts there. It's other types of expenditures for consultants and executive travel. There are a number of different ways in which we're trying to find spending reductions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

At the same time, there's also a significant increase in the CAF budget taking place over the next few years. We're increasing almost 70% of our defence spending, so we'll continue investing in what's important.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister. We've exhausted Ms. Mathyssen's time many seconds over.

[Bill Blair, Liberal, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

I indulged myself in a few extra seconds, Mr. Chair. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I see that your health break has not impacted your ability to respond.

Mr. Kelly, you have five minutes, please.