National Defence Committee on Feb. 14th, 2024

[Richard Shimooka]

As I said, it's become significantly more difficult. We're able to get less and less documentation or don't have the ability to access it.

I'd go back to honourable member Collins' comment about media in general. We've seen that a lot of the institutions that are critical for the oversight of government are becoming weaker. Again, departmental representatives not really answering questions directly in some cases, or forthrightly, is really weakness.

I think we need to look not just at ATIP but holistically at all these different components of what we look at with accountability to ensure that we get a more—I won't say honest sense—accurate portrayal of what is occurring. I think in a lot of cases we have real challenges with governmental programs. We are watching right now what's going on with ArriveCAN. Oversight is required.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. McSorley, with regard to your role in standing up for civil liberties, I'd go back to the comment by Mr. Fillmore that electronic communication is making this impossible to do. Do you think electronic communication should make it easier to get the information that Canadians are asking for?

[Tim McSorley]

It should be easier to interact with the government and access that kind of information. It should be easier for the government to document, research and collect the information that it needs to share with Canadians. It's true that we are producing more information, vast amounts of information, but there's also technology at hand to better sort that information, access it and share it with the public.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair, before we move on.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

All right.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

On Wednesday of last week, we passed two motions that were timely and that needed to be reported back. One, of course, was the crisis of housing and the lack thereof for members of the Canadian Armed Forces who are unhoused. This is particularly in Halifax, where they're living under multiple feet of snow, potentially. The other one was the motion to provide our CRV7 rockets to Ukraine to help them push back the Russian invaders. They are asking to get these rockets as expeditiously as possible.

I ask, Mr. Chair, why those haven't been tabled in the House. If you're unable to do it, I'm more than willing as vice-chair to table those on behalf of the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I'm informed that they only came out of translation today. That's why they haven't been tabled in the House.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I know the minutes take time, but these are short and sweet motions. I would hope they would be done quicker than that.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

We can only move as fast as translation moves around here. I'm sorry.

Mr. Fisher, you have the final five minutes.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

It's been a fascinating panel. I want to thank our witnesses.

Thank you very much, Colonel, for your service to our country.

Mr. Shimooka, you were talking about, to use Mr. McSorley's quote, the “ever-growing creep of secrecy”, but you touched on the access to information changes starting in and around the time of Harper. Can you give us just a bit of an outline of when you started to see changes happen or begin?

[Richard Shimooka]

It's hard to say.

You saw a creep. It wasn't as dramatic as, let's say, the discussion with officials and our ability to access through public affairs... Rather, I saw over time that the requests I made.... There's no way to quantify this in an empirical manner to show that there's been a policy change. You saw with the requests you made from 2002 through various governments—there were four major governments through this period—that there was an increasing reluctance to provide information in large-scale releases. You had to be more and more adept at trying to get the information you wanted in your requests.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you very much for that.

I want to go to the colonel for a really quick question.

Is the term “kraken” a nickname for the commander of the Royal Canadian Navy? My understanding is that it's a nickname of love and respect given to the commander. I believe Commander Topshee is currently considered to be the kraken.

It's not a top secret, underworld type of thing, is it?

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

I'm an army officer—that's my background—so I cannot comment on any naval expression of this type, but I've never heard of it before.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

My understanding is it's a term of endearment rather than something secretive.

Mr. Chair, I'm going to pass my remaining time to MP Mathyssen.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

This is really lovely.

[Darren Fisher, Liberal, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

It's Valentine's Day.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

Colonel Drapeau, in the time that I have left, because of your expertise on this, I wanted to ask what reforms you believe are still needed to support survivors of sexual misconduct and trauma in getting the justice they need.

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

Just table legislation to make it happen so there is no hesitation or confusion. At the moment, there is. Some cases are transferred to civil authorities while others remain within DND, and there's some confusion in people's minds about where this will place them. At the moment, I know the military police, among other things, are asking victims which of the two systems they prefer. Madam Arbour is against that and I'm against that.

Victims are not in a position to do that. It puts them on the spot by asking them whether or not they would like to have their abuser prosecuted before a military tribunal as opposed to a civil court. Being part of the military and responsible to the chain of command, they don't know if this will put their loyalty into question.

Victims are not the ones to decide. They don't know what the differences are between the two systems, and they are huge differences.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

They aren't legal experts.

[Col (Ret'd) Michel Drapeau]

That's right, exactly, and the vast majority of them don't have access to legal counsel to be making that kind of decision.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much.

Mr. McSorley, you had a final recommendation for Ms. Lalonde that was cut off. Do you want to finish it?

[Tim McSorley]

I'm trying to remember which one that was.

What I will say is we can't emphasize enough the need for these statutory reviews to happen. We have our information and what we've been able to observe, but having a statutory review of both NSICOP and NSIRA to better understand this and having parliamentarians and the public able to debate and discuss what changes need to be made are really crucial to getting to specifics.

I've shared some today, but I think that's the main one that I'd like to emphasize.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Ms. Mathyssen.

Colonel Drapeau, I just want to congratulate you on your 22 years in the practice of law. As a “brother in law”, I've been sitting here thinking about adverse presumptions. If timelines are not met, an adverse presumption follows.

Is that a useful thought for lighting a fire under those who, for whatever reasons, don't respond in a timely sort of way?