Evidence of meeting #14 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Were you offered any legal representation or a support officer?
You were not offered any of this. Okay.
Were you provided with a transcript or a recording of the interview that you gave? You said it was three and a half hours.
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
Yes, I was there for over three and a half hours, or possibly four or five hours, because there were breaks in between. Before that, they explained the whole process and everything.
I'm sorry; I forgot the other part of your question. Go ahead.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Okay. Well, I want to go back to the last one, because you shook your head, but we have to have it on the record.
Did you have legal representation or a support or liaison officer provided or offered to you?
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
No, I got my own legal representation, I believe, after the case was dropped, because as soldiers, we all feel that they will take care of us, but I quickly found out that was not the case.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Was a member of the clergy brought in or did you—
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
What did the member of the clergy say to you?
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
To say it in a condensed form, the padres, the COC, mental health all work together, and they all go back to the chain of command. It's all about exchange of information.
Conservative
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
At first he was trying to help me and evaluate my trauma. Then finally he turned on me, and he said things to me like.... Some of his quotes were that....
I didn't write those down to have them with me. I could hand them in later.
He basically threatened me, saying that you're here to work and that the chain of command is very busy and....
I can't remember his exact words, but they were hostile.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
Was there any reference to unlimited liability?
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
Yes, thank you. He said something to that effect—that you're on unlimited liability, and that you came here to serve, and that we could always put you back on PAT platoon if you don't like it.
I just felt very threatened and I didn't understand why he took this completely different approach. Obviously, that ended my communications with that padre, but they kept bringing in other padres as well.
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
They didn't want you to pursue this. Okay.
Did you resume your training right after that in your same stream of training, or what happened instead?
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
No. As a matter of fact, as a weapons tech, I had asked to be placed on a French course, because I am bilingual. When they put me into the French engineering course, they came in and said that I was not qualified in French. I gave them my reply in French.
I take my courses in French. I speak French, and I'm from Quebec.
I was absolutely astonished that they were pulling me out of the class in front of everybody. Finally, they let me stay in class, but I did have to pass written and spoken French afterwards.
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
I started to, but then—
I'm sorry. I think time is up.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
No, it's okay. I don't want to interrupt. I was going to go to the next witness, but by all means, finish your thought.
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
I'm sorry. What was your last question?
Conservative
Cheryl Gallant Conservative Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON
I wanted to know whether or not you just resumed your regular course of education, or were you required to do something else?
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
No, they kept telling me they were going to put me back on another course, but they said they didn't have English courses. I said, “Fine, put me on a French course,” but they said that with the francophones, because there are fewer people, it takes longer for them to be on course.
Then I asked for an OJE back in Montreal. They kept delaying me and they said that I'm delaying myself because now I have a lawyer. That's when they were throwing all the 1-800 numbers, saying that if I want to be reporting, then call here or do this or write memos.
It's just a whole bunch of hurdles that they try to put in front of you. They actually told me to put apps on my phone to play games—which I usually don't do—and to sit in a canteen and wait while the other people were in classes. I just sat there and waited.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
I have to keep time. I apologize for that.
We do appreciate your service and you being here expressing something that's very sensitive. I don't want to interrupt, but we do have timelines.
Cheryl, thank you for your questions.
I'm going to go now to the next member, Sherry Romanado. You have six minutes.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Through you, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here, for your service and for coming and sharing your stories. Everyone here is trying, and I believe you are too, to make sure that this doesn't happen to anyone else and that justice is served. Your testimony today is incredibly important for us to make sure we get this right, so I want to thank you for that.
I want to start first with Ms. MacDonald.
You said a few things that I'd like to follow up on a little bit. You mentioned in your testimony that the CAF were using their rank and what we've heard in previous testimony was the CAF shouldn't be investigating itself. The independence is lacking. You mentioned you were never interviewed. You ended up going to the civilian police and they told you to go back to the CAF.
Could you elaborate a little bit about what your thoughts are, in terms of Bill C-11 and how that could help provide some clarity, but also some independence?
Master of Social Work, As an Individual
Right now, the Canadian Armed Forces, which is struggling with a problem of conduct of its membership, is investigating itself. They're using sexualized violence to control their subordinates or to establish power over colleagues. It's used as a tool of social control and power. It's normal, everyday behaviour. This is what they do. This is how they behave.
It needs to be separated because they start with human rights violations and then they move into Criminal Code sexual violations. The Criminal Code part needs to be removed from them, so that there will be consequences for their conduct. There are no consequences for human rights violations with the chain of command. The part where we're looking at things where the chain of command wants to use the military judicial system to maintain good order and discipline—they could start by addressing human rights violations.
What we see from high-ranking members is that they violate human rights and then they get promoted and moved into another position where they have authority to address the hostile, sexualized culture and keep going with their bad behaviour. It needs to be removed, so that there's a consequence.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
Thank you for that.
My next question is going to be for Ms. Jaszberenyi.
You mentioned that you didn't receive any supports, in terms of what happened to you. The person who assaulted you went on to continue their career in the Canadian Armed Forces even though there had been a previous case you had mentioned. There was a pattern of behaviour here with this person.
When you reported, did they not take it seriously?
Retired Corporal, As an Individual
CAF was aware of a predator on base after the first victim along with her witness also made a complaint. Soon after, they sent him on training with us to Shilo after being told of abuse reports on that course.
My COC was more worried about the quotas he had to meet with HQ, as they tried to convince me that they didn't see the gravity of my rape, which was after the training. During that time, there were five COCs who sat around me.
ATIP results showed that the COC was more concerned with the media attention as well, as I said earlier. Staff from the MIR and mental health were also there to extract the information. When I was in one of the meetings that I was ordered to, these are words that they were using: "They accommodated me", "There is no pleasure in keeping you in Borden", "No one is holding a gun to your head", "There is no policy for someone like you", " We are bending over backwards for your situation", "Memos are not about you.” “It's a sales opportunity, a sales pitch for what you want." Finally, I asked them, "What am I selling?"
They were just trying to pressure me to sign things. I could tell you about the NIS and that the investigator prevented the accused from admitting his guilt, even though he was a known predator and under investigation for another sexual assault. As a matter of fact, he had to leave his interrogation about my case for the other sexual assault interrogation. It's in the file.