National Defence Committee on Nov. 20th, 2025

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to preface this with some new information that came out either yesterday or today. I don't know if you've seen the report by Benjamin Roebuck. He's the ombudsman for victims of crime. He did a 3,000-person study about the civilian system. Using 3,000 people is a fairly robust sample. It examines how victims of sexual violence are treated, including whether they are actually believed. This is in the civilian system.

I'll read one of the strongest statements he made in his preface:

The harm is so well recognized that police officers and Crown attorneys regularly caution survivors against reporting or pursuing charges. The administration of justice is in open disrepute.

He presented a number of statistics: 93% of the complainants said they feared police wouldn't believe them; of a random sample of 1,000 self-reported violations, 51% reported the crime, and of that 500, only 102 cases went to trial, resulting in 70 convictions; and 268 cases have been stayed since the Jordan decision. Sexual assault is the most likely to be stayed or withdrawn.

Now, I point out those statistics because we had a previous witness, Lieutenant-Colonel Rory Fowler, who said that what has happened....

I am so sorry for your experiences, but his point was that what has happened is a failure of leadership within the CAF rather than a failure of process. We had another previous witness who suggested that the answer to this problem is a cultural thing in the military, and that what needs to happen is a culture change before anything ever gets to the criminal level.

Ms. Vanderveer, can you comment on that?

[Heather Vanderveer]

I'm sorry. Can you ask your question again, please?

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Sure.

I'd like you to comment on the thesis that the answer to the problem.... There's no perfect answer, but to mitigate the circumstances is to change the culture within the CAF to halt the process before it ever gets to a criminal level.

[Heather Vanderveer]

Thank you for repeating that for me.

Yes, I completely agree with you.

I have spoken with survivors. Even in my own experience, survivors can get over the rapes. I have heard that numerous times. If the system just would have handled their cases better, if they would have believed them and would have done the due process in a timely manner, survivors have said that they can get over that, but because they're not believed, because they're questioned about what they were wearing and asked what they did to cause themselves this issue.... You shouldn't have to go through that.

Yes, it does need to start culturally. We need to start believing survivors. We need to start believing the men and the women and not brushing it off as, “Well, what's the matter, can't you take a joke?”, or being told that it's just hazing or whatever the narrative may be.

We need to believe them, period. Then the system needs to move forward with charges or whatever that looks like.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Yes. I'm previous military, and you're all previous military as well. What do you think of the argument that it is easier to make culture change within a chain of command in the military than it is in the civilian world in terms of the legal system?

Ms. Jaszberenyi, please go ahead.

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

For me, culture change does not address all the issues. Especially in recruiting, there are alcohol and drugs on the base and there's improper security. People need proper instructions. Culture doesn't change. Base procedures and proper morals do.

For me, these were just smokescreen words. The confidence and trust words used at committee are a psy-ops tactic to force the public into thinking that changes are being made. What type of culture keeps rapists together on a base with victims? How is that culture?

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

With respect, would it not be true that it is the culture? Is that not the culture that needs to change?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

For me, they need to implement more instructions, talk to people and take away or monitor what is happening, because all these young kids are leaving their homes for the first time to serve and they're given a good paycheque. It's the first time they're away from home. As an older individual, I've never seen so many drugs and so much alcohol in my life.

I would just like to finish this. CAF must recognize that culture change, gender issues, transparency and these modern terms they're using do not align with reporting a crime or being a victim. To me, it's just a word they're using to hide everything away. These terms make soldiers uneasy and unafraid...to speak or joke. It's just like on the forms for “he” or “she” or “other”. I saw this personally. I witnessed this.

Also, what happened in the past is that it turned into ridicule: for example, “hop on her” for “Op Honour”. That's what they were calling it. This just causes more retaliation, as I saw with my co-workers in the office.

Our military needs to concentrate on protecting our country with any gender and culture that is willing to protect our borders, be trained appropriately and work on their military ethos. On Fridays, our instructors ended our engineering class by saying, “Don't get killed, don't get caught and don't become a statistic.” We were told to call a number. I believe it was for MPs. Was it to cover up from the civilian system?

These are things that we see happening continually. What I witnessed as an older individual was quite shocking. As you said, you have your own children serving. It is quite concerning. I believe that we need to go to the root of the problems and look at all of these individually.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

Mr. Malette, you have up to five minutes.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

First off, I too want to echo my colleagues in thanking you all for your powerful, impactful and, I'm sure, in some cases, painful recollections and testimonies here today.

I'd like to start with Ms. MacDonald. We heard previous testimony in these hearings that choice is important for the survivor or the complainant or the victim, and the terminology has been batted around. There was even the suggestion that lower level or minor cases could be heard in the military system.

We just heard, today, a suggestion that since the civilian courts are in such a shambles as they deals with these sorts of incidents, why bother reporting? This seems to be a common theme, unfortunately.

Can you please give me your take on some of those suggestions that the choice is important?

[Paula MacDonald]

It is true that the civilian system is in a state of disrepair. On the issue of having a choice, the issue is having skilful administrators of the law responding to the victim and giving equal access to justice. If it's a choice between.... A choice doesn't help. The Government of Canada is responsible for setting up the system, so the actors in the system need to behave skilfully.

We see that whenever we leave it with the military, it may be a failure of leadership, but the administrative safeguards are not in place to prevent the CAF leadership from engaging in human rights violations and sexual violence. The tools of governance are not present in the administrative system, so we need to provide those tools. If a Canadian solution is to move it to the civilian system—and it seems that this is our Canadian solution—where our three Supreme Court justices, who are experts in the delivery of justice, say it should be, then this is what we need to do.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Further to your expertise then, what long-term impacts have you observed when survivors cannot access timely or appropriate care, and how can this legislation better address that?

[Paula MacDonald]

I am a clinical social worker and a champion of the class action lawsuit from the beginning, in terms of trying to convince other women to come forward. I serve other women as a clinical social worker and try to help them gain access to resources and justice after their abuse. What's happening is horrific. It has more mental health impacts than the actual sexual assaults. They're more traumatized by the system that is being put in place. It's horrific.

Women's rights and sexual abuse victims' rights matter just as much as those accused of engaging in sexualized violence, and we need to have it set up so that it supports them.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

Further to that, and on the issue of coming forward, as you had mentioned, I'd like to ask Ms. Jaszberenyi about this. Based on your experience as a member of the CAF, what were the biggest barriers that prevented survivors from coming forward about the abuse, especially in your case?

I'm sorry, but just before you answer that, when was your assault?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

It was in 2018.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to distract you from the question.

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

No, that's okay.

Your question was, what prevented...?

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

In your experience, what were the most impactful barriers that prevented you or others, in your estimation, from coming forward?

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

First of all, when you're in the military, you already know that making a report is taking a huge chance with your career. For me personally, if you're asking me personally, being an older individual serving in the military and having a career, of course I didn't want to throw my career away. It was already hard being among young soldiers as somebody so much older. I mean, I was basically the age of the chain of command or the CO. That's one of the biggest hurdles.

Also what I experienced was a lot of gossip. To answer part of the other question earlier, my assailant continued his courses. You know that they will have no hurdles, but when you report, you have to go through all this process. You're inundated with all these 1-800 numbers, acronyms and all kinds of things. For example, one time my sergeant came to me with about 64 pages, I believe, on how to write a memo. My memo kept being refused, because you have to indent it and do the right characters and everything. You're inundated with all these hurdles that are just a waste of time. You know, I was ready to serve, but I was there sitting in a cafeteria waiting with nothing to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you for your testimony.

Mr. Bezan, you have up to five minutes.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I know how incredibly difficult this is, especially looking at you who all signed up to serve your country, and in the very institution that you wanted to be a part of are the ones who, instead of going out there to fight the adversary, had to be fought off, the very men and organization that were supposed to be your comrades in arms. They were supposed to be your friends, your colleagues, and they turned out to be your adversaries.

Can you all just quickly tell me what year your sexual assaults took place, just so I have it clear in my mind as well?

[Paula MacDonald]

They took place January 2015, March 2015 and January 2016.

[Elvira Jaszberenyi]

My date, I believe, was May 13, 2018, and I reported it pretty much right away.

[Heather Vanderveer]

For me, it started in recruiting in 1989, and then in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993.