Evidence of meeting #23 for National Defence in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clause.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Sherry Romanado Liberal Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC
It would be nice if you read it out, but thank you.
The Clerk
Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?
(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 5; yeas 4)
Liberal
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
I've already said what I had to say.
February 4th, 2026 / 5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
Colonel MacMillan or Colonel Lortie, what would the impact be of removing military judges from the Canadian Armed Forces?
Col Geneviève Lortie
In itself, the question could bring up a lot of constitutional questions around the establishment and independence of military judges. In the Fish report, one of his recommendations was to study that aspect of the act.
We have had a working group for the last two years, and the question was to determine the most effective framework for the creation of a permanent military court of Canada in co-operation with an independent authority, the Department of Justice and representatives of the military justice system. We're getting to the end of that report, and while looking at it, a lot of questions came up about concerning the deployability of civilian judges and their subjection to the code of service discipline, just to name those two.
The fact that the motion proposes to keep them as military judges—“military” is a defined term that says, “shall be construed as relating to all or any part of the Canadian Forces”—would be something to consider. Also, all the other provisions that establish military judges refer to them as being military members.
There's a lot of conflict with a lot of other provisions, like where it says that military judges cease to hold office when released from the CAF at their request and that a chief military judge must hold the rank of at least colonel. We're addressing a provision that concerns regular force military judges. We also have provisions concerning reserve force military judges that are not covered. They are a different type; they're nominated. They don't have the exact same appointment, but there are other provisions that address that. That's not covered here, but I would suggest that if something is done for one group, the other group should also be considered.
Liberal
Chris Malette Liberal Bay of Quinte, ON
I have a follow-up question for Colonel MacMillan. In your estimation, what would be the impact on the maintenance of discipline, efficiency and morale if this should come to pass?
LCol Matt MacMillan
Fundamentally, it would be a question of whether the court could function. If the court martial can't function because of questions of judicial independence and the constitutionality of removing military judges from the military, it raises questions about tenure, pay, who they report to and whether they are under the military or the broader federal judicial scheme.
If you can't function as a court, you can't maintain the discipline, efficiency and morale of the CAF.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Although we didn't hear from Justice Fish because we had trouble with the video link, he did send in a written submission, and he said:
The first two recommendations in my report address the need to civilianize military judges, but these recommendations are not implemented at all by this Bill. [As I explained at par. 54 of my report, the appearance of justice is compromised by the fact that military judges remain members of the CAF while holding office.]
He went on to say:
The civilianization of military judges is not a novel proposition. England and New Zealand have long civilianized their military judges. In the course of my review, moreover, the appointment of civilian judges with the sufficient degree of military expertise was solidly supported by our Deputy Minister of National Defence, and by virtually all senior members of the military hierarchy (including the chief and then acting chief of the defence staff, the commanders of the Royal Canadian Navy, and the Royal Canadian Air Force, and several other commanders).
That's right from the written submission we got from Justice Fish.
Afton David said we need to make sure that military judges are removed from the code of service discipline, in her testimony. The best way to get them outside of the code of service discipline is to make them civilians.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Seeing no further debate, shall BQ-3 carry?
(Amendment agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Clause 18 as amended agreed to)
(Clause 19 agreed to)
We're now on new clause 19.1 and CPC-16.
Mr. Bezan, do you wish to move it?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I shall move it.
Again, this comes back to timelines and making sure we have people appointed in the proper amount of time. It's 90 days for the chief military judge.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
As the chair, I'm not going to read the whole thing again, but it's out of scope. The bill modifies the appointment process of specific positions, which do not include the chief military judge. Therefore, the amendment is beyond the scope of the bill, and it is the opinion of the chair that it is inadmissible.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
We'll go over to you, Clerk, for a vote.
(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 5; yeas 4)
That brings us to CPC-16.
Is there further debate?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
This was Afton David's third recommendation. She said, “I agree with my fellow witnesses that there should be a limit on the time taken to fill Governor in Council appointments for key military justice roles. This must be paired with meaningful consequences for prolonged vacancies.”
Rory Fowler also made the same comment, especially about the chief military judge. He said, “I pointed out in my blog the length of time it took to appoint a chief military judge, and that undermines military justice.”
Justice delayed is justice denied. We want to make sure we get these people appointed in a timely manner, so it's 90 days.
Liberal
Tim Watchorn Liberal Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC
I propose 120 days.
(Subamendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
(Amendment as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
There are no amendments proposed for clauses 20 to 39. Is there unanimous consent to group them for the vote?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
Shall clauses 20 to 39 carry?
(Clauses 20 to 39 agreed to on division)
(On clause 40)
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Charles Sousa
That brings us to clause 40 and CPC-17.
Mr. Bezan, do you wish to move it?
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I shall move it. You shall rule it out of order. I shall challenge it.