National Defence Committee on April 20th, 2026

[Grazia Scoppio]

One of the things we should be recommending is an analysis of the programs in terms of how they're performing and what the gaps are, to identify better ways for retention—past the programs. We should increase recruitment for the programs so that all of the positions are filled. These are good opportunities for youth. In theory, they should all be filled—or most of the time—and then there's the retention piece.

We spoke about some of the challenges that indigenous members have faced in the past—the recent past, not the historical past. It's amazing to think that they were actually not allowed to join, but it's even more recent. That's why the CAF has apologized. These are real experiences. These are real-life experiences.

Despite the apology—the apology is a very good step—there's casual racism, if you want to call it that, and members have, during our research, unveiled these kinds of instances. It could be something like diminishing the experience of the residential school system and the impacts it has had on the indigenous population in the attempts of the colonial powers to erase their culture and their languages. That's just one example.

Sometimes there's tokenism, so not really understanding why inclusion is important but doing it as tokenism. Other members have represented to us that the expectation in the CAF is that it's up to the indigenous members to do the work of reconciliation. Well, no, it's not. They can facilitate. They can advise leadership, but they're not to do the work of reconciliation.

Once a young person does these programs—completes a program that can be for just a few weeks, like the summer programs, or for a full year, like the ILOY program at RMC—they're going to have experiences similar to members who are serving in the regular forces and they're probably not going to join. CAF is not really presenting itself as an employer of choice.

These things are all good for stats. Having indigenous advisers is amazing. They're advising leadership. Having these programs is great. Having days when we are recognizing indigenous people is great. It's the deeper organizational culture that hasn't really changed.

I hope that answers the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you. You'll have many more opportunities to elaborate.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, we'll go over to you for six minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here.

This is good timing, Ms. Scoppio. I wanted to speak to you. In fact, would you like to finish the point you raised earlier, in one or two sentences, before I ask you my first question?

[Grazia Scoppio]

Indeed, these are good questions you're asking. Sometimes it isn't easy to give you an answer, especially if we don't really have all the data.

Without a report on the reasons why there isn't enough recruitment or retention, it's really hard to answer your questions. I can share a few issues that we discovered during our research, but I don't always have the answer for the reason I just mentioned.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

We do have data, and that's what I wanted to ask you about.

According to the figures I have in front of me, we know, for example, that the proportion of indigenous people is lower in the Royal Canadian Air Force. It's 2.6% compared with 3.2% in the army and 3.0% in the navy. You may say that's not much of a difference, but it's still a smaller percentage. Do you have any idea why it's lower in that particular branch?

[Grazia Scoppio]

Yes, that's a very good question.

Did you know that the Royal Canadian Air Force is the only force that doesn't have an indigenous program? Ask their leaders why there isn't one.

The army has programs for indigenous people. Bold Eagle was the first program. The army is really the leader, if you will. There's the Raven program in the Royal Canadian Navy, but there's no program for the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Is there a reason for that? I don't know, but as researchers, we certainly ask ourselves that question. Why is there no program in the air force? I don't have the answer, sir.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

It's very interesting to know that it's the only branch without one. In fact, if I extrapolate from your previous comment, I take it that you think the Royal Canadian Air Force should also have its own program.

[Grazia Scoppio]

Yes.

Let me add to that.

My colleagues also talked a lot about the Rangers. That's obviously an army program. I would also like to point out that approximately 30% of the Rangers members are indigenous. Mr. Lackenbauer can correct me if I'm wrong. Again, the statistics aren't always accurate. It's definitely a large percentage, which will, in fact, increase the percentage of indigenous people in the army compared with the navy and the air force.

I don't know if that answers your question.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you.

You also said that certain programs were underutilized. Just as there are some that don't have a program, like the Royal Canadian Air Force, there are also some that have programs but underutilize them.

Could you talk a bit more about that underutilization?

[Grazia Scoppio]

We know that the Canadian Armed Forces have a recruitment problem. They're in the process of making changes. There's a whole program to make the recruitment process faster and more flexible, but it's going to take time. It has only just been put in place.

There's a general recruitment program. The Canadian Armed Forces haven't been meeting their recruitment targets, not just this year but for years. That's a problem. That will affect every program. If the armed forces don't recruit enough people in general, then they won't recruit enough women, indigenous people, permanent residents and so on. The forces are failing to meet the targets in general, which includes programs for indigenous people.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Currently, the target representation rate is 3.5%. The Canadian Armed Forces retention strategy from 2022 had set this target for March 31, 2026. As it turns out, they're far off the mark.

Is that basically due to the shortcomings you're telling us about?

[Grazia Scoppio]

Roughly over 50% of people who apply to join the Canadian Armed Forces withdraw from the process because it takes too long.

Let me be clear: The Canadian Armed Forces doesn't have an issue attracting people. There are enough people in the Canadian population, women, indigenous people, recent immigrants with permanent residency, racialized people and so on. The issue isn't attracting people. The issue is recruitment.

It has now just been announced that there will be changes. Like other researchers and staff members, I'm very pleased with these changes. We'll see whether the Canadian Armed Forces will be able to meet its recruitment targets once the system is modernized.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Pierre Paul-Hus, I appreciate your being here. I know you come with some knowledge of this matter. It's over to you for five minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

Ms. Teillet, in your research, you often discuss the warrior culture of indigenous peoples. In your opinion, during the First World War and the Second World War, indigenous people enlisted en masse to take part in Canada's war effort because it was part of their nature to be warriors.

What has changed in recent decades to make young indigenous people less inclined to join the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Danielle Teillet]

As a historian, I need to point to the history and legacy aspects. There was a point just made about the air force having the lowest number of indigenous members. The air force was probably the most difficult arm for indigenous people to get into during the Second World War, for example, because of, as I stated in my opening remarks, the “of pure European descent and of the white race” thing, and because of the educational requirements and the legacy of residential schools. It had higher educational requirements than the other arms of the military. Even if an indigenous recruit was not ruled out based on race, they might be ruled out based on educational attainment. There are so many different elements that have restricted indigenous enlistment.

We have to remember that these are generational challenges as well. People who served in the Second World War had fathers who wanted to serve in the First World War, potentially, and children who may have served after the Second World War. We have generational impacts from so many things, like the residential school system. I've spoken to numerous people who have been told by family members, “Don't enlist. They're not going to take care of you. They're not going to look after you.”

That has been the legacy of the armed forces for generations. Even though this has shifted significantly, there are many families and communities in which that reputation has not shifted.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you for that.

You mentioned treatment. I can make a certain comparison with francophone service members from Quebec. I served in the Canadian Forces for 22 years. Things were certainly much easier when we worked in a purely francophone environment in Quebec. However, from the moment we had to work elsewhere in Canada or abroad, under a more English-speaking command, it created a lot of tension. For example, I saw courses have to be cancelled completely because of conflict. Francophones then had to be sent to training elsewhere. I experienced it.

Let us get back to command and control. I did my first courses with Brigadier-General Jocelyn Paul. We were 18 years old. Mr. Paul later became the commander of the Canadian Army.

I also had indigenous people under my command when I was a unit commander. Everything always went well as soon as we were integrated, in the sense that everyone was working toward the same goal. When motivations are a bit divided, that's definitely when conflicts arise. Our primary motivation was to accomplish our mission.

Earlier, we talked about the Canadian Rangers and their mission. I see that 30% of them are indigenous, but I thought there were many more indigenous people involved.

Let us look at the current security environment in the Arctic. Is there a command and control issue in the Rangers' mission? Do indigenous rangers feel a bit like people who are just there with a weapon to walk around and report information, or do they really feel like an integral part of an effective military operations unit? I know that Lieutenant-General Erick Simoneau recently told the committee that there was a lack of equipment and resources. Do you think the people there feel important, or is there a lack there?

[Danielle Teillet]

I think questions regarding current issues with the rangers would probably be better focused at my colleagues.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Yes, the question could be for Mr. Lackenbauer or Mr. Kikkert.

[P. Whitney Lackenbauer]

That's a great question.

It may in a sense be a command and control problem from the army side, but I think there's also an issue of making sure that rangers are validated in the contributions they're making. We don't do enough celebration of the Canadian Rangers.

I believe the statistics that Dr. Scoppio was referencing a couple of times are Canadian Army statistics that often exclude the Canadian Rangers, as a recent census of Canada did, saying, “Please identify if you serve or have served in the Canadian Forces, except with the Canadian Rangers.” What message are we sending when we exclude indigenous people who are choosing to serve our country by staying in their communities and sharing their expertise and knowledge in a differentiated form of service?

From the army standpoint, at least in the 1st Canadian Ranger Patrol Group, where I have very close relations, I hear repeatedly not that they need more equipment or a change in their overall role, mission and tasks, but that they need more opportunities to go out on the land. They need faster processing of their pay and their damage claims. They want more opportunities to put on their ranger hoodie, their ranger ball cap and whatever appropriate clothing they have for the environmental conditions at that time of year in their part of Canada, and to go out and do more things.

This goes back to Ms. Gallant's question at the beginning: How do we increase enrolment? Partly, it's celebrating the rangers and drawing more attention to their value within the Canadian Armed Forces system and how their role as force enablers and force multipliers is valued, is key to Canadian security. It has a deterrence effect as well, because it enables us to economically, with a utility of force, defend our homeland.

At the same time, we can also reduce some of the burdens associated with the onboarding of recruits. What Dr. Scoppio was referring to for the regular force and primary reserves also exists for the rangers. What's crushing a lot of the process of bringing in new rangers is the sheer volume of paperwork that's been introduced over the last 15 years.

One of the downsides, to get back to your question, Mr. Paul-Hus, is that we sometimes associate increasing command and control with more accountability and more administrative burden. In the case of the rangers, as long as we're building in the right mechanisms to, of course, refine command and control.... At the same time, we must make sure that for the rangers, at the end of the day, we're providing them with more opportunities to do what they've been doing for more than 75 years, to get on the land even more and to showcase to Canadians and our friends and adversaries around the world what they bring to the table in terms of defending our country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Professor.

Thank you, Monsieur Paul-Hus.

I am now going over to Monsieur Chris Malette for five minutes.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

My question is for Ms. Teillet, Professor Scoppio and Dr. Lackenbauer, but if Professor Kikkert cares to chime in, feel free.

As the member of Parliament for Bay of Quinte—home to 8 Wing CFB Trenton, as I like to proudly point out here every chance I get—I represent a community that plays a critical operational role in supporting Canadian Forces Station Alert in Nunavut.

Given that some bases like mine are located in predominantly anglophone communities, what concrete steps would you say the CAF can take to better educate and prepare personnel and the surrounding civilian communities to understand and respect indigenous cultures and languages and the lived realities of the regions, particularly in the north? Are we doing enough in that regard?

We'll lead off, I guess, with you, Ms. Teillet.

[Danielle Teillet]

My purview is further back into history than current issues. I can't really speak to the contemporary challenges. However, I can say—historically speaking, of course—that on the point you're making, as well as the previous point about the integration of indigenous people and, let's say, white settler Canadians, a huge part of that is about working together and having the experience of integrating.

For example, historically speaking, there were no segregated indigenous-only units raised in either world war. There were some during the First World War. A couple of battalions that were raised, one of them near the Six Nations of the Grand River reserve and one of them in Winnipeg, had a lot more indigenous enlistment. It was likely just because of the location they were recruiting from, but I think from an indigenous perspective, that's part of what led to feelings of equality for the first time.

When you live in a very discriminatory and restrictive environment, to be treated the same as your peers once you join the military can be very empowering. It gave a lot of service people an opportunity to see what was possible so that when they came back, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, there were pushes to lobby for more supports and more rights.

I can't really speak to the current events.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Perhaps I'll ask Professor Scoppio the same question, if I may.

[Grazia Scoppio]

Can you rephrase the question?

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

What steps can the CAF take to better educate and prepare personnel in the surrounding communities, particularly in the south, where they don't really have a grasp of the indigenous cultures and contributions and lived realities in the north? What can we do better there?