National Defence Committee on April 20th, 2026

[Grazia Scoppio]

I spoke before about a fairly recent initiative, a mandatory course on indigenous cultures that every member of the Canadian Armed Forces has to complete. However, from conversations I had with indigenous members in the CAF, it turns out that the course, which is delivered only via DL, ends up being a check in a box and a page-turner. There's not a lot of deep learning happening.

One of my recommendations would be to make it an in-person course. Maybe it could be partly in person, depending on the length, but with advice from indigenous elders or indigenous advisers in the Canadian Armed Forces, we would transform it to become an in-person course.

There are other things. For example, we can learn a lot from the New Zealand Defence Force. New Zealand has integrated a lot more of the Maori culture in particular into army events, including into operations of the military. I want to preface that by saying that New Zealand is a bicultural country of the non-Maori and the Maori. That is very different from Canadian society. We're a multicultural country. Within our indigenous population, there's a lot more diversity, whereas in their indigenous population, they're all Maori. Within those differences, we can still implement certain changes to integrate indigenous culture into certain events, certain instances, so that it's not just a stand-alone indigenous program, as we mentioned.

I want to clarify a comment that was made earlier by my good colleague Dr. Lackenbauer. The statistics I was referring to are probably about a year old. It's about 27%.... Again, that percentage is fluctuating. Recruiting fluctuates every single day. About 30% of Canadian Rangers self-identify as indigenous. It is possible, as we know, that members of the rangers and members of the Canadian Armed Forces are indigenous but select to not self-identify. The reasons are many. We can explore that in a subsequent conversation.

I hope that answers your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you both.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, it's over to you for two and a half minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Scoppio, we obviously heard your views on the programs and proactive measures that make it possible to improve representation. However, there's also the reactive side of things. There have to be adequate reporting mechanisms for cases of racism or discrimination. Are those mechanisms sufficient right now?

[Grazia Scoppio]

Are you asking me whether there are sufficient mechanisms to respond to racism and discrimination?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

In fact, if a case is observed or, at the very least, if a case is felt by a member of the forces, there's currently a mechanism for that member to report that they believe they have been subjected to racism or discrimination. Is that done well? Is it effective? Is it being properly implemented?

[Grazia Scoppio]

I don't think that was the case in the past. However, now that General Carignan and the forces in general have apologized for the discrimination and racism experienced by members and veterans, I think things are going to change. They need to change. We have no choice but to change them. Will it be more effective right away? As we know, there are always delays between the intention to implement a policy and the implementation of that policy. That means it's going to take time.

However, we already know that, since the Heyder and Beattie case, there's no longer any tolerance for violence and harassment against women. That means that while cases may have slipped under the radar in the past, that's no longer the case. Leadership has to be alert: If a member reports a case of racism, there's no choice but to act immediately.

What has happened in history can explain why we're here. However, actions in the present constitute change. The forces have to change and will change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Mr. Anderson, it's over to you for five minutes.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to start by recognizing some people in my riding who fought in the war. We have a reserve OKIB, Okanagan Indian Band, and they have a proud history of fighting in wars.

William Smith was a tank gunner who was killed in France in 1944. Gunner Robert Sheffield, 19, died in the war. Flight sergeant Leslie Sparkes of the Royal Canadian Air Force died in 1942. Edward James Tronson went to war with four of his brothers, who all came home. Unfortunately, their mother, Louisa Tronson, died before any of them got home. I wanted to mention that.

I want to set the stage for the next question. It's an interesting one.

The modern battlefield in a symmetrical war is something we're seeing right now in Ukraine. There are two tactical scenarios for communication. One is the frontline cities. For instance, Kramatorsk is about 15 kilometres from the Russians. There is surveillance from satellites or high-level drones. There is medium-level and low-level surveillance. There are electronic listening devices and electronic scrambling devices. The GPS is foiled. Every time we try to use it there, it tries to direct us into the river. Listening devices are everywhere, and there is AI and advanced signals intelligence. At the zero line, which is a little closer to the Russians, in Kupiansk, electronic comms are simply shut down. There's nothing there.

This brings up a question I had about the code talkers from World War II. It seems odd in this highly technological environment to talk about something that was in World War II, but in the immediate tactical battlefield when communications have to be done, what about something like the code talkers? You would think that in a modern battlefield, you would just whip out your cellphone and use a translator device. Can any of the academics here tell me how many indigenous languages are actually on translation devices?

I've looked around, and I cannot find anything there at all. We have 80,000 Cree speakers in Canada. We have 40,000 Inuktitut speakers. In a modern symmetrical battlefield where electronic devices don't work—and this is a serious question—is this a possibility? Is this something that should be explored?

[P. Whitney Lackenbauer]

It's a very interesting question looking at Canadian code talkers. I think a lot of us are drawn to the windspeaker American examples—the Navajo, for example—but we did have Canadians, Cree and Anishinabe, who contributed during both world wars in a similar function.

I'm not going to comment on operations overseas and whether or not we have the ability to force-generate and force-employ that kind of capacity in enough numbers to have the function and utility you're talking about on the battlefield. When it comes to domestic operating environments, however, that we think about being contested here in Canada in remote regions, the ability to have northern indigenous people speak in their languages is, once again, another competitive advantage. I'm more familiar with Inuktitut speakers, and often when they're translating things, they're inventing terms and descriptions on the fly. It would be almost impossible, even in this day and age, for AI to know what they were talking about unless the AI was a member of that community.

Domestically, it certainly has a utility, and in fact I would suggest it happens all the time. When the rangers are out on operations, they're often speaking with one another in the language of their community. From that standpoint, we should consider thinking about how Canada as a whole can leverage that depth of expertise and the vibrancy of the indigenous languages that we have in our country as a way to think about how we're competing effectively in the 21st century.

[Scott Anderson, Conservative, Vernon—Lake Country—Monashee, BC]

Speaking of the leverage that you just mentioned, how would that translate into...? We've heard a lot about casual racism and a sense of racism within the forces. How would that translate into an almost special forces cachet that would actually attract indigenous folks to the CAF?

[P. Whitney Lackenbauer]

I think that's interesting. A former public affairs ranger for the 3rd Canadian Ranger Patrol Group, Peter Moon, used to say that the Americans have their special forces while we have our rangers, who are very special forces. He spoke about a visit of indigenous rangers from northern Ontario to Fort Knox and how much attention they gathered.

If I think once again about promoting the rangers, being that they are force-generated by the Canadian Army but force-employed as a Canadian Armed Forces capability means they have also participated in training and operations with Canadian special forces, such as in the balloon incident.

It's also important to see that elevating the rangers' profile and recognizing and celebrating their skills contributes to special forces and shows that they have a distinct and therefore very elite special skill set to operate in environments familiar to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Professor.

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

Ms. Romanado, you're up for five minutes.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you, I'd like to welcome the witnesses for being here today. What an incredible panel of witnesses for us.

I want to start with some updates.

This morning, we had a press conference with respect to the recruitment numbers. I want to let members of the committee know that we have actually surpassed our recruitment targets this year. While we are happy with that, we still have a lot more work to do in terms of the numbers we are seeing. There is a huge interest from Canadians in joining the Canadian Armed Forces, and we are incredibly happy about that. I wanted to flag that.

One of the areas to note is that 3.3% of members of the Canadian Armed Forces are indigenous. We're not where we need to be, but again, we are making strides in our recruitment numbers.

Ms. Teillet, your testimony here has been incredibly powerful. In 2017, I headed a delegation for the 100th anniversary of the Battle of Passchendaele. During that trip, we were able to visit the gravesite of Alex Decoteau. In fact, Mr. Paul-Hus was on the delegation with us, and we took part in the Alex Decoteau run. He was a very famous indigenous runner and represented Canada at the Olympics. He served during the Battle of Passchendaele and lost his life.

We had the opportunity to visit his grave and participate in the Alex Decoteau run, and it was a fond memory for me. I think we need to talk more about the work indigenous veterans have done in representing Canada and about their sacrifices for Canada. I'm looking forward to coming to the War Museum and perhaps talking some more about indigenous veterans and their recognition.

You mentioned recognition. Can you elaborate a bit more on how we could improve the recognition of indigenous veterans and make sure they're honoured and their stories are told?

[Danielle Teillet]

Thank you so much for the kind comments and the question.

As I said fairly explicitly in my opening remarks, recognition has been lacking for a long time. Some of the hard work that has been done in that regard has largely been done by indigenous veterans. It was not something that was necessarily a given through, let's say, Veterans Affairs or CAF. Those veterans have done work to achieve this.

Of course, after the First World War, the government and society were not interested in that story. In fact, we saw amendments to the Indian Act that prevented status Indians from hiring lawyers or gathering politically to try to lobby for some of these rights. We saw a tightening of those restrictions. That's why it's all the more important, as you said, that we're recognizing this now.

As far as recognition in the present day goes, every November 8 at the National Aboriginal Veterans Monument, there is a ceremony to recognize Indigenous Veterans Day. We have also done programming at the War Museum. We're still figuring out what this year's program will look like.

From my perspective, the work I do is also about increasing that diversity of perspectives in not only our temporary exhibitions but also our permanent spaces, because that's something we get comments about: “How come there isn't more here? This is important history.” We're a bureaucracy. It's the public service, and things move slowly, but we are working on it.

There's still a lot more that could be done. I'm hoping to grow the profile of not only Indigenous Veterans Day but also indigenous military service in general. We need more visibility. We need to see it, and we need people to understand this history so they're not asking why we even have Indigenous Veterans Day: “Why do we need a day specific to indigenous veterans?” That goes back to the entire history I spoke about.

Thank you so much for the question.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

My next question is for Professor Lackenbauer.

You focused a lot on the rangers. I'm sure you heard that we recently announced significant investments to establish a network of northern operational support hubs, or NOSHes. We announced $2.67 billion over 20 years to establish them in the north. The hubs will be located in Iqaluit, Inuvik and Yellowknife.

Can you talk to us about how these investments in the Arctic and the north can help make sure critical infrastructure is in place so the Canadian Rangers and others can continue to work in the north and also defend Canada? As you said, they are our eyes and ears, and they're often the first line of defence in an emergency response. Can you elaborate on how we could use this to assist in that regard?

[P. Whitney Lackenbauer]

That's a fantastic question.

We're definitely very much welcoming the investments in these northern operational support hubs and nodes. They will allow for more agile and effective deployment of southern assets to northern locations. I love that you're focusing on the benefits they also bring to people residing in the north.

One of the first steps, I would imagine, in establishing this infrastructure is figuring out what can be dual-use or multi-use, meaning what pieces of that infrastructure might also have benefits for the communities themselves. Here, there's been a real effort to develop genuine partnerships in order to find out from communities and indigenous rights holders what their priorities look like and what their needs are, and then to try to find alignments with these military investments.

In the specific case of the rangers, I imagine there are opportunities for particular buildings to be established as part of these hubs and nodes that could perhaps accommodate them and their equipment and provide rangers with a place to train or gather—those from not only that community but also nearby communities. They could also perhaps have a parade square for the Junior Canadian Ranger program and potentially serve as a hub for a lot of the other first responder organizations Dr. Kikkert mentioned earlier. They could function as a public safety space within the community.

I am really excited about this. I think the way these announcements are building upon previous governments' commitments to highlight the importance of Canada taking action in the north is to be welcomed. Now we're at a moment for action and for making sure that action is aligned with northern priorities and agendas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Professor.

Thank you, Ms. Romanado.

Mr. Kibble, I'll turn the floor over to you for five minutes.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today.

I have really appreciated the questions. I came with a list of prepared questions; however, I have taken so many notes that I hope I can get through them. The testimony has been excellent.

In no particular order, I'll start with Dr. Kikkert.

I liked your comment that “We are the people to call when things go sideways”. I really appreciated that. I hope that people who are listening today, online and in the room here, take that to heart. It's a great quote.

You mentioned facing barriers. You talked about them being the first resort. You mentioned your three pillars, and making things easier to use and making them the first resort. Do you have any suggestions that we could take to heart on how to make our indigenous units easier to use and a first resort?

[Peter Kikkert]

That's a great question.

Number one is explaining to civilian agencies what the rangers can do, how they can be activated and what the process is for that. That's going to help speed up their activation during these emergency situations. That's what I hear from rangers a lot: that something is happening and they want to help out, but there are all of these hoops they have to go through before they can actually be activated and be used.

It's very unclear. I think that's a major issue.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

That leads to my second question. You mentioned streamlining activation. Are there any specific recommendations to streamline that? I can see that being a huge frustration, but it would also limit the capability to force-multiply.

[Peter Kikkert]

Search and rescue is a good example for this. Clarify when the rangers can be used for a search and rescue operation. Right now, what's often left to the commander's discretion is what “life and limb” is. That's when they can be activated immediately, but it's unclear what “life and limb” means for a lot of rangers.

There's a memorandum of understanding between the 3rd Canadian Ranger Patrol Group in northern Ontario and the Ontario Provincial Police that lays out a foundation for how to use rangers quickly and effectively for search and rescue. That is a model that could be built upon for other jurisdictions. However, again, it's about working with civilian partners to better understand how they can use the rangers for a lot of these different kinds of incidents. That is going to help out the entire process as well.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Joint rescue coordination centres are often the ones that activate them. Do you feel there needs to be better communication and understanding between JRCCs and the ranger groups?

[Peter Kikkert]

That's a great question.

JRCCs can activate the Canadian Rangers to support aircraft crashes really easily and sometimes even marine incidents. They can potentially utilize the rangers as secondary search and rescue resources. That's pretty clear, actually. Issues are more with civilian partners, like emergency management organizations or provincial police departments, where there's a bit more confusion over how they can be used for things like ground search and rescue.

I will say—and this actually answers a question that came up about Trenton in particular—that Joint Rescue Coordination Centre Trenton and the 424 Squadron in Trenton have been doing really important work over the last few years in building the kinds of relationships with the rangers that you're talking about there. That's going to make them much more operationally effective.

I work with them frequently on something called the Arctic search and rescue exchange, which brings rangers down to JRCC Trenton to learn about how the JRCC works and how the squadron works. That kind of face-to-face relationship building to see what makes this process work better is absolutely the best bang for your buck. Get people together in the same room to work through these things to better understand one another. It's working really well.

Kudos to JRCC Trenton. JRCC Halifax has also being doing this on its side. These are really good models to build off of.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Ms. Teillet.

I appreciate the military history background. It's very important to have those stories in the more modern military. You said that attitudes have shifted significantly, and I'm glad to hear that. I think that probably more work needs to be done.

You gave an excellent example of two indigenous members who came back from Afghanistan. You said that they were “well looked after”. I'm very happy to hear that. That, to me, is the type of story that should be spread among people to support recruiting.

What improvements would you recommend, such as those types of stories being shared, and what methods? Would they be more traditional methods of sharing that information or more modern methods for getting that positive information out as we continue to improve culture and try to recruit more indigenous members to these units?

[Danielle Teillet]

I'm just looking for clarification. Are you asking about basically utilizing these examples to boost recruitment?