National Defence Committee on April 22nd, 2026

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

As Mr. Sauvé said, the example has to come from the top, but as was also said, it doesn't have to come from a francophone. When it comes to bilingualism, when the example comes from anglophones, the impact is often stronger.

Let me give you an example. Jeremy Hansen, who just went to space, is an alumnus of the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston where he received his bachelor's and master's degrees. We'll take advantage of that while we can. His demonstration of bilingualism was a huge gift, and it started from his training as an officer cadet at the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston.

Having examples like Ms. Carignan is absolutely important, but it's also important to have examples of anglophones who make it a point to speak French in public, even though their level of French won't open the door to the Académie française. It's important that they show why it's a matter of leadership and respect and why it's important for them, but also for the model they represent, to speak the other official language. I think that's fundamental. It starts at the top and then works its way down, but the rest of the hierarchy has to follow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you.

Mr. Kibble, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Maisonneuve, you spoke kindly about people who do what I'm doing, but forgive me, I'm going to speak to you in English today.

I also want to say that I will be studying in Quebec this summer for two weeks.

Now I will continue in English.

I had the pleasure of meeting you in Hamilton at the CPCOE symposium.

I agree with you that bilingualism is an important factor of leadership. I agree that this should apply to all rank levels.

You mentioned this, but do you feel every rank level should be bilingual immediately or at some point in the training process? I know we explored this a bit earlier.

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

I just want to reiterate that I think at the officer level it ought to start right at the beginning. Every officer should start learning his or her second language right from the get-go. Obviously, the higher you go in rank, the more bilingualism, I think, is required. From the NCO, non-commissioned personnel point of view, as I said, I think most personnel will serve in a unit of their own language at the beginning of their career. As I think Professor Chouinard said, if you're going to be serving outside, and if you wish at some point to leave and to go on different missions, or to off teaching in a different place in Canada, you need to start early to learn your second language.

I really think this is a question of attitude. Coming back to the previous speaker and the question that was asked by Mr. Watchorn, I've sadly seen many times in Ottawa, at sometimes very senior meetings of all deputy ministers, etc., where a speaker will stand up and speak strictly in English. I find that so disrespectful. As you said very well, a couple of words in French make all the difference. The issue is acknowledging that this country is bilingual, that there are two official languages, and those languages are French and English. Even in Calgary when a senior person is talking, they often say a few words in French. That's why we have bilingual officers in the forces.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I'm going to jump in. I want to talk a little bit about what you said about meritocracy within the framework of French and English, and I agree. Did you agree with the current policy in recruitment where recruits are no longer screened for language skills in either official language?

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

No, I disagree. I think they ought to be screened.

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

Are you aware right now that about 20% of the permanent residents are not being screened, and the majority struggle speaking either official language? In a meritocracy, maybe you could speak to the impact this would have on capacity, respect and on the institution. You said it was very important within the framework of French and English. Would you agree also it's not just both languages, but any language?

[LGen (Ret'd) Michel Maisonneuve]

I think if you're going to serve in the Canadian Armed Forces you ought to speak French or English. Certainly I think that's something that needs to happen. Again, the whole permanent resident thing is just an effort to widen the pool. To me, the reason why recruitment has not worked—we could get into it if you want—is more of a question of our country promoting service to country, the honour of serving; our country making an effort to bring people in and then talking about serving, and the importance of having the Maple Leaf flag on their shoulder. It starts there, and it has to start right at the top.

I've also heard something recently that we still have a problem with the capacity of getting people through the training system. Of course—

[Jeff Kibble, Conservative, Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC]

I just want to quickly get to Madam Le Scelleur.

Yes, you're right about getting personnel through. In recruiting they've announced wonderful numbers, but those are only for the people entering the system, and about 25% of them are being lost through training issues through the system, so there's a big challenge there.

Madam Le Scelleur, I would like to thank you for sharing your story. Very quickly, on the support that you received while you were in the military, not just in theatre, could you make a quick comment on whether you got the services in English and French as you preferred? Also, is that continuing now that you are with Veterans Affairs? I'm aware you're now a veteran. Are you able to access services in your preferred language through their process?

Thank you for your service and your answer. I think I'm out of time after that.

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

Thank you for the question.

In the military, the time I was in Valcartier, service was available in French. The minute I transferred to Ottawa, that was different. Not everyone was bilingual there. There was a sign for bilingualism on the counter, but they had to go and search for the only person in the office who could talk in French. If the person was not there that day, then you would have to speak in English.

As for Veteran Affairs Canada, when you're calling a case manager who is no longer your case manager because you're on deck, for example, the person who will respond to you is supposed to be bilingual. Normally, I'm able to receive what I need in French; if not, I will do it in English. We know that all services are not available for people in their first language. Most resources are for anglophones, but, as I said, for an anglophone family or person who is living in Quebec City, for example, they might struggle the same way as a francophone will struggle in an English area.

Yes, for sure, it's supposed to be bilingual. It is on paper, but not in reality.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Mrs. Romanado, you have the floor.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses who are here today.

As a member of a military family—I have two sons and a daughter-in-law, all francophones, currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces—I know exactly how hard it is to obtain services in both official languages on military bases.

When my children went to the Royal Military College Saint‑Jean, they spent half the month studying in English and the other half in French. So they had the opportunity to learn both official languages with the other officer cadets.

Ms. Chouinard, are courses at the Royal Military College Saint‑Jean offered in both official languages or only in English?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Are you talking about the Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Yes, I'm sorry.

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Under the Official Languages Act, in theory, all programs must be offered in both languages. Unfortunately, what we've seen, particularly since the Royal Military College Saint‑Jean opened, is a dwindling number of francophone students. It's becoming increasingly difficult to offer education of equal quality in both official languages, as there are far fewer elective courses available. Sometimes, we can't even offer the required courses because the numbers aren't high enough for us to be able to offer those courses every year. I can't speak for all faculties, but in political science, we need at least three officer cadets to give a course. That's not that hard to do.

So, if we look at the total figures, we see fewer and fewer francophones are studying at RMC in Kingston since RMC Saint‑Jean opened, because a number of francophones have decided to enrol in programs offered in Saint‑Jean rather than Kingston. Unfortunately, bilingualism in Kingston is de facto declining as a result. I'm just talking about the educational component here. First, it's because it's becoming increasingly difficult to offer the same range of courses and programs of equal quality in both official languages. However, it's also because there isn't a sufficient demographic pool of francophones at RMC Kingston and in the city of Kingston. That is a designated region under Ontario's French Language Services Act. I recognize that there is a francophone community in Kingston. However, the fact remains that if we don't have a strong francophone demographic pool at RMC Kingston, bilingualism as it's experienced outside the classroom and second-language courses, is going to take a hit.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sauvé, you talked a bit about the impact on military families. I co-chair Seamless Canada, which brings together the federal, provincial and territorial governments to discuss the challenges that military families face, including during transfers. We're in the transfer season now. Sometimes a family member can't find a job because the province doesn't recognize their licence or diploma. It can also be difficult to find child care services, a family doctor, and so on. We're in discussions with our provincial counterparts to find ways to remove these barriers, but there's also an official language barrier. I spoke with a francophone family in Alberta who even had trouble finding things in French in the stores.

Families live in communities, but they're not always on a military base. Based on your experience, what can we do better to help them?

[Eric Sauvé]

As I mentioned earlier, the family really must be treated like a team. As members of the military, when we're transferred, we have access to a team, which is the base, or the unit. We have clerks and people who help us. Spouses and children don't have access to that. Finding a job in your second language, finding a family doctor and finding courses for young people is an extremely arduous process for the family when they have to start all over again every two or three years.

Spouses are often understanding, and so are children up to a certain age, but they need help. They have to receive services equivalent to what the member receives. When the member arrives at the unit, there is someone who helps them fill out the paperwork, and so on. However, oftentimes, someone gets left behind. They also have to find friends and support in their community. Ultimately, they have to build a new network. It's not always easy. Sometimes things go very well, sometimes not. When things don't go as well, that has a real impact on the operational effectiveness of the member and their unit.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

In a way, it's a matter of retention. After five or six postings, the family starts to get fed up with military life.

[Eric Sauvé]

Absolutely.

I was posted to Valcartier, Ottawa and Washington, going back and forth a bit. However, friends tell me they've had five postings in six years. They had to find a house and take care of everything that entails.

When I was transferred out of the country to Washington, I practically didn't work for six months, because I spent my time filling out paperwork and doing everything. It really takes support, and we have to offer it to the family as well. The family is as important as the member of the forces.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I totally agree.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

No, that's it, Mrs. Romanado.

Thank you, Mr. Sauvé and Ms. Chouinard.

Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Chouinard, I know you had to leave at this time. Are you available to answer one question?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Yes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC]

Perfect.

You testified in 2018 before a Senate committee to which you made two recommendations: Review the mandate of the Commissioner of Official Languages and establish an administrative tribunal to hear cases involving alleged non-compliance with the Official Languages Act. The Official Languages Act has since been modernized.

Do those recommendations still suffice today?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

There were two possible paths to modernizing the Official Languages Act with respect to the commissioner's mandate: Either give it more teeth or establish an administrative tribunal that would handle certain things such as monetary penalties. Parliament chose to grant those powers to the commissioner, and the regulatory process is under way. In both cases, I believe that work has been done. Now, the big part of it is the implementation. We have our feet firmly in it right now.