National Defence Committee on April 22nd, 2026

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Ms. Le Scelleur.

You were a witness when this committee studied Bill C-11 last year. Tomorrow, the bill will be moving to report stage in the House, where the government has removed several amendments from witnesses with a Speaker's ruling.

Given your experience, which you mentioned in your testimony today, if all these amendments that were removed thus far go forth, do you still believe that Bill C-11, in its form without the recommendations, looks to be flawed, given what you told us here today?

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

There's a point of order by Ms. Romanado.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

Chair, we're doing a study on francophone and indigenous members of the Canadian Armed Forces, so the relevance of the question from the member opposite is not related to this study. Given the importance of the experience of members of the Canadian Armed Forces, francophone and indigenous, I think we should stick to the topic before us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Romanado.

Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I believe, though, that during opening statements, Ms. Le Scelleur said that in her experience, after her trauma in the CAF for PTSD, she lacked services in French, so I think it is relevant.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

I don't believe this is a point of order. If it's relevant, it's been brought forward.

Is there any further debate on this issue?

Let's try to keep to the point at hand. Thank you.

We'll go back to Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Ms. Le Scelleur, based on your experiences that you had with PTSD and being denied treatment in French for your trauma, as this bill changed, do you feel that the changes that were taken out, based on the recommendations, would in any way impact the treatment you should have received?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

I will be really honest. I haven't read the new proposition that has been made, so it would be really hard for me to express what I think about it. I still believe we should have a choice. It's exactly what I was saying. When we're talking about accessing services for mental health, it should always be a choice of the member to have the service in French, if it's desired, or if it's okay, to be in English, but not to impose a service in a second language if the person is not capable to do so.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

You mentioned having a choice. If this bill were to go forth, it would go to the civilian system and there may be language impediments. There may not be interpretation necessarily or it may be delayed. We have Jordan's Principle, which could deny victims the chance to have their case in court at all.

With that in mind, do you believe we should keep the amendments, because they're still there right now, giving victims the choice on whether or not they want to go through the civilian or military system?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

The choice is important, because as a member of a first nation, for example, I need to recognize my culture. The military culture is really unique. Going into the civilian world, my fear is that at some point there's going to be a lack of understanding of this culture to really grasp the experience a person went through. For me, choice also means respecting the culture the person comes from. The francophone and anglophone cultures are also different.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

When you were in Afghanistan, were there any other issues besides the trauma where you found it difficult to be deployed and to not have everyone speak your official language—or everyone who should have?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

I'm lucky, because I was able to receive the training and develop my capacity in my second language, so I did not necessarily face any problem when I was in Afghanistan. I think I was well prepared. It was mostly my subordinates who suffered from that lack of training or that lack of practice. They were in Valcartier, Quebec, so they were mostly always speaking in French. When you're starting an operation where everything is done in English and you're not practising, it's really hard. I saw them struggling with that at some moments.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

When you first reported the incident that brought you through the trauma, did you have the opportunity to report it in your first language?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

As I said when I testified previously, I did not report the sexual misconduct. It was a choice to not report, because it was a person directly commanding my chain of command. It was a brigade commander, so for me, it wasn't possible to make this report.

My trauma is related not to military sexual trauma. It's related to the fact that my vehicle exploded on an IED in Afghanistan, which is different.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Were you able to talk with anybody with you at that time in your first language?

[Capt (Ret'd) Hélène Le Scelleur]

Yes. My unit was mostly francophone. My boss, who was a physician, was a francophone too.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Algonquin—Renfrew—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Charles Sousa]

Thank you, Ms. Gallant.

Mr. Malette, it's over to you for five minutes.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Unlike my colleague, who was fortunate to learn French at an early age, I did not have that, despite the fact that my French Canadian father was very much fluent. It was his first language. My Polish mother had other ideas, so I'm unilingual. I'm getting there. This time next year, I will be conversing in French.

As I frequently mention here, I'm proudly representative of the Bay of Quinte riding, which houses 8 Wing CFB Trenton. I know from conversations and observations—I've spent almost 40 years in that area—that it's a largely Anglo area, as are probably two-thirds or better of our bases. I do see a lot of largely unilingual CAF members and their families quite often struggling to communicate and assimilate into the communities in these areas.

Professor Chouinard, and I guess perhaps Monsieur Sauvé, what would you suggest we could do to better help in this transition and to better support francophone CAF members and their families, whether on base or not?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

I think one of the main things is to make sure that the families who are moving in those circumstances with the member have access to all the services they need and to the family services the CAF provides in the language of their choice. That includes information about things the family will need that the CAF does not provide, for example, schooling, which comes pretty much first in line when you are moving your family and you have kids. Where is the closest French school to the base? Virtually all of them, except for Gander, I think, have French elementary and secondary schools nearby.

Obviously, that's not the responsibility of the CAF, but having that information available for the families would be tremendously helpful. Fostering those community ties with people who are in similar circumstances I think would be helpful as well.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Monsieur Sauvé, do you have any observations?

[Eric Sauvé]

Thank you for your question regarding families. In the military, a family's a team. My wife didn't choose me because I was in the military; she chose me, and I was in the military. She had to live with the consequences of that.

I was deployed to Afghanistan for nine months while she was home pregnant raising a three-year-old and a one-year-old, and that winter, in Quebec City, they got 4.5 metres of snow. It was a lot harder for her than for me during those nine months. Then we were transferred to Ottawa and Washington. My wife had to learn English and find jobs working in English. My children had to learn English. Also, one of the reasons I left the forces was that I had four children, and travel and transfers were getting hard on them.

The least we can do is offer families services in their language. That means going through family centres, which are a very good initiative. As Ms. Chouinard said, you have to tell them where these services are.

According to some of the testimony I've heard, some families have trouble adapting. I saw it in Valcartier where anglophone families who were moving to Shannon or Valcartier were having a hard time. As a supervisor, when a subordinate was having problems at home, I felt it, and I had to help. If we can't help when it's the family having issues, then it might be better to send them somewhere else. Families are really a team, and we have to help them. We need spouses. To a certain extent, we also need to help the children go through that. For many families, and I went through this, when kids are 9 years old or 10 years old, they don't want to leave their friends, they don't want to have to build a new life, they don't necessarily want to have to study in another language. These people leave, and that has an impact on the effectiveness of the military.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to pass the remainder of my time to the thoroughly bilingual Mr. Watchorn.

[Tim Watchorn, Liberal, Les Pays-d'en-Haut, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Malette.

I have a question for everyone.

We're talking about culture change. Since the beginning of this Parliament, about 11 months ago, the committee has been talking about culture change. Right now, we have a chief of staff, General Carignan, who's a francophone woman. Do you think this will have a positive influence and help advance culture change?

Let's start with you, Professor Chouinard.