Evidence of meeting #23 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bitumen.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Vollmershausen  Chair, Board Member, Mackenzie River Basin Board
Mary Griffiths  Senior Policy Analyst, Pembina Institute
Margaret McCuaig-Johnston  Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Technology and Programs Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Kim Kasperski  Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

4:35 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

We're talking about the mature fine tailings. One of the things that has to be addressed by the industry is dealing with the stored, accumulated volumes. So in this consolidated treatment process, they dredge it up and pump it to big mixing chambers where they mix it with the fresh sand. And as those solids settle, they settle together. The clay particles are in the interstices of the sand--in between the sand grains--so the whole thing settles as a mass. That's where the clay ends up, mixed with the sand until it forms a solid surface. The water rises to the top, it's pumped off, and you're left with a solid surface. That's what they do with the clay.

Does that answer your question?

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Is it inert?

4:35 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

Is it inert? Yes. These are like koalinite, which is the stuff that coats paper. These are just ordinary clays and montmorillonite--well, there are traces of that. It's inert, just like anything you'll find in your soil in your garden. The things that may not be inert are the soluble particles in the water, which is still in the pores of that mixture--the organic compounds, the salts, and so on.

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

But are there toxins left in that?

4:35 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

That's what I was referring to, the stuff that's left in the water, like naphthenic acids, the salts, and so on. It's actually quite—

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

It is quite toxic.

4:35 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

It's acutely toxic, yes. It does decrease over time. Also, the high salinity has issues with respect to plant growth.

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

For how long? You said it's toxic and will reduce over time. How long will it be?

4:40 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

In studies that were done maybe ten years or so ago, they were trying out these natural wetlands to see how they would reduce toxicity. Within months there was a significant reduction. So they estimate--project--maybe a year or two, but that's as long as you don't have any fresh input of new tailings, which would keep the toxicity up.

But one thing that will not disappear is the salinity. Unless you treat the water, it will stay there.

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Do I have any more time?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Lee Richardson

You're three minutes over your time.

That's very good. It's exactly the kind of thing that I think the committee is looking for.

In anticipation of our visit, Ms. Griffiths was mentioning that we would be hearing from some of the native bands in the area. We have Pat Martel coming before the committee in two weeks to discuss the impact on some of the native communities around the sites.

In addition to that, I think this meeting today has probably, more so than ever, stimulated an interest in visiting and actually seeing these ponds and their reclamation, or not, with our own eyes. So I think that will be very effective.

Thank you for those answers.

I'm going to move now to Mr. Harris.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. I appreciate you being here.

I have a number of questions. I'll try to make them short, and we'll try to complement with short answers if we can, although we probably could use more time.

This appears to be a very serious issue we're talking about today, and an issue that is crying out for solutions. This is the first time I think that you folks have been to this committee on this issue.

How long has this been perceived as a problem? Just quickly, how many years have we been aware of this problem?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Technology and Programs Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

Dr. Kasperski could perhaps answer that question for you.

4:40 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

Soon after Suncor started is when they perceived that there would be a tailings problem. It was when their ponds started. But the cumulative effects have just been since five years ago, when all these other operators put in plans to develop surface mine operations.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

When did Suncor start up? How many years ago?

4:40 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Oh, 1967, okay.

4:40 p.m.

Research Scientist, CANMET Energy Technology Centre (CETC) - Devon, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Kim Kasperski

Yes, centennial year.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

All right. I'm trying to get an idea of how long this has been going on, so I can go to the next question.

4:40 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Pembina Institute

Mary Griffiths

Back in 1995, when the provincial government gave royalty breaks, it was thought that we might have one million barrels by 2015. We had a million barrels in 2004, so I think the whole problem grew much faster than they had anticipated.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

I guess that leads to my next question, since their considering it appears to have been around for some years.

How many times have you appeared before the Standing Committee on Natural Resources on this issue, as you are today?

4:40 p.m.

Chair, Board Member, Mackenzie River Basin Board

Jim Vollmershausen

Going by that, no.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC

Never? Ms. Griffiths, never?

4:40 p.m.

Senior Policy Analyst, Pembina Institute

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Energy Technology and Programs Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Margaret McCuaig-Johnston

I haven't appeared before, but our director general, Hassan Hamza, was here several weeks ago speaking about oil sands challenges.