Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 9th, 2006

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

What I said was with respect to the types of clays in these systems. They're just ordinary clays. The naphthenic acids themselves--if you remember from that course--are hydrocarbons. The elements in them are hydrogen, carbon, and oxygen. They are big molecules. There are about a thousand different molecules that actually make up this group. Some of them are toxic; some of them are not.

When the natural bacteria chew on them, they break up these molecules into harmless, non-toxic compounds. So there are no elements in the naphthenic acids themselves that will be left over to cause further effects. They're just simple carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen, but they're put together in such a way that some of them are toxic. When they break down, it's just carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen left over.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Ten percent of the water is discharged. Does this water contain toxic substances?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

As far as I know, the only water that is discharged is potable water that comes from the river and is used on-site for drinking water and so on, and it is then treated like any sanitary sewage, which is then sent back to the river. That's what's called not process-affected; it hasn't been touched by the tar sands. Any process-affected water is not discharged.

There is other river water, for example, that might have gone through a heat exchanger, did not touch any tar sands, and could be discharged. As long as it hasn't been in contact with the oil sands, it is discharged. It's just the river water.

In the case of potable water or sanitary sewage, it would be treated the same way water in any other sewage plant would be before going back to the river.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I will use the question asked earlier by Mr. Telegdi as a starting point: are there things that can wind up in the water table? What could be dangerous and what could wind up in the water table?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

Anything that is soluble in the water can travel with the water, so you're talking about any kind of dissolved inorganic salts, sodium chloride, iron, aluminum, or anything that will stay in the water. That also includes organic compounds like the naphthenic acids, which are soluble. So anything that can flow with water can potentially end up in groundwater. As long as it's soluble in the water, it will stay with the water.

As Ms. Griffiths also alluded, when these waters mix in the ground with different chemistries, reactions can occur. So at that point, some things may fall out of the water and stay in the reservoir. As long as it's soluble in the water, it will go where the water goes.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

You who do research, could you tell us if it would be possible to build leakproof ponds, as is done in landfill sites to retain the water with very thick and very water-tight seals, so as to prevent toxic substances from escaping?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

The civil engineers who design these ponds do flow studies of the ponds to try to monitor how much will actually flow out of the ponds, through the bottom, let's say.

This is not my area of expertise, but the numbers I have seen for what they call the water conductivity are very low in these ponds. Because of the clay makeup, the water does not flow readily through these systems, so they have a very low permeability.

This is more the realm of the engineers. When they build these ponds, they determine the water conductivity of these systems. I don't know the units, but they come up with numbers that show a certain flow rate, and then they can say whether there's a leaky pond or not. They try to design these ponds with very low water conductivity.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Even then, is there not still some risk? Some element of risk remains. How do you go about assessing the risk of contaminating the water table?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

Here we're getting way out of my area of expertise, so I could only offer an opinion on that. It wouldn't be a really scientific answer.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Perhaps Ms. Griffiths has an opinion on this. Are you familiar with this?

[Mary Griffiths]

Yes, I am, but I'm not an expert on this, and I would not give an answer. Sorry.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

We will have to call upon an expert.

We are moving ahead, we are moving ahead.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

It's a very good question, and it's certainly one that we would like to have answered, because it is a serious concern. I think we labour under the opinion or the view that there is no leakage at this point. As Ms. Griffiths said, however, that's not beyond the realm of possibility. So it's a question you should ask in Fort McMurray when you're there. I hope you get the answer, because I'm interested in it as well.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Just on that, for your information, you might get some people in from the groundwater research institute at the University of Waterloo. It's a centre of excellence, and they can give you all sorts of information on groundwater effects.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you. If they couldn't appear as witnesses, perhaps we could ask them for an opinion.

We are going to try to wrap up, but we have two more to hear from. I'm going to ask Mr. Allen to proceed.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks, everybody, for being here today.

I have three or four questions, and they should be relatively quick. The answers might not be that quick.

I don't think I'll go swimming now when I go up there, although I'm not sure if it's after one year or two years. I'll have to wait and see.

The first question concerns the usage of the water, and I have some ranges here. The upper range seems pretty consistent at 4.5 barrels; the lower range, two barrels to three barrels, seems a little bit different. What are the key drivers making that variable for the usage of the water?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

If you want, I can respond to that.

A key driver is the nature of the ore itself, because the ore grade varies tremendously, for example, with respect to the clay content. If you have higher clay ore, which is poorer quality ore, you need more water. Also, the tailings are worse for that ore. You get less water back. One of the main drivers is the ore itself as to why you have such a wide range in water usage. Also, the individual producers have slightly different processes in how they deal with the tailings, such as whether they have thickeners, for example. Again, that will cause variations in the amount of water used or lost per barrel of oil produced.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

My next question is with respect to the toxicity. Let's say this does break down. Your best guess is it breaks down after one or two years. What are the other dangers that this possesses after that time, after that one to two years of the toxicity breakdown?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

I can kick that off. Again, I'm just going by what I've read on the subject.

There are issues about what they call chronic toxicity. There's acute toxicity, which means it will kill something right away, and then there's chronic toxicity, which means the effects would build up. There are studies being done to address that issue. There's also the issue of the salinity itself. Having such high salts in the water affects what it can be used for. There are also studies looking at certain organic contaminants other than the naphthenic acids. Those are the issues around the toxicity of the water.

[Mary Griffiths]

All I'd add is with respect to the fish. We know that there is fish tainting, and we don't know quite how that's associated with the bitumen, I understand, but I don't have any scientific results on that.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

This is my last question. I've been involved in environmental impact assessments before, for power stations and things like that. I'm familiar with when they build these holding.... They put impermeable liners in them. Is that something that is even reasonable for us to move towards--impermeable liners? If not, with these ditches that could potentially leach, has some other thought been given of ways to control that so we don't get leaching into the groundwater?

[Dr. Kim Kasperski]

This would be an opinion. There's the issue of the sheer scale, when you're talking ponds that are two or three square kilometres. They are really small lakes. I don't know. You'd have to ask an engineer about the practicability of lining such a big hole in the ground with impermeable membranes. I really can't respond to that.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

In the interest of time, I'm going to go to Mr. Paradis.

[Christian Paradis, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to share my time with my colleague.

Do you see any opportunity to stop using fresh water by using water of a lesser quality, for example, waste water that would not be harmful to the environment or saline water, as you were saying? Would that be possible?