Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Prof. Alan Young]

I take Syncrude's commitment at their word and I think they're doing their honest best, but your point about the fact that the scale is really without precedent is an important one. There are many players operating simultaneously in an environment that none of us know. The hydrology itself is an extraordinarily complex thing.

By the way, Ducks Unlimited has just recently done some pretty intensive work on hydrology that is bringing up a lot of very interesting, very surprising results that will be critical for long-term ecosystem viability. This is an experiment of global scale, and we need to treat it as such.

When you look at that through a compound of complexity with accelerating climate changes, as we've seen it, you're getting the ability to experiment with plants, and sometimes animals, over a very changing climatic environment as well, which is really a critical question when you're trying to establish new plant communities. What are the climatic parameters you're going to be working with in 50 years? We don't know. The assumptions will be constantly challenged, constantly overturned, and that's why I would say that the real answer to your question, from my perspective, is no, we don't know.

Can we manage it? The only way we can do that is by being very cautious and humble up front. So it means we have accountability built into the system that means that if something goes wrong, somebody has the feedback at a timely measure to know when it's going wrong, we know who is responsible for setting it right, and we know when we've hit thresholds, whether it's toxics, or habitat loss related to species, or whatever.

We need very critical, very firm lines of accountability. We need very clear feedback mechanisms, coming back from communities on health issues, coming in from fieldwork on ecological issues. And we need to have real thresholds driven by financial penalties and rewards and by regulatory mechanisms, because if we don't take it that seriously, we will be in deep trouble at the end of the day.

I think we have an experiment. We need to treat it as a vital and very dangerous experiment at some level, but it's a huge opportunity if we use the huge financial resources available to us to try to do the right thing.

[Matt Carlson]

I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but I'll again emphasize that due to the uncertainty.... I do hope Mr. Friesen is correct and that the reclamation is successful, but I think that at this current time it does have to be seen as an experiment.

When it comes to tinkering with things, the first rule is don't tinker with all the parts. We need to maintain some areas that are left intact. If we're going to be heavily disturbing the oil sands region, let's make sure we leave areas that are ecologically similar in an intact state to ensure that we provide a reserve of natural capital. I think that's the precautionary approach that is needed.

[Lloyd St. Amand, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, and thank you for the answer.

Do you have a question, Ms. DeBellefeuille?

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

It's a shame that Mr. Paradis isn't here, because the question he asked you earlier brings to mind something we heard previously.

When committee members toured an oil sands project site in Fort McMurray, a woman from Shell Canada informed us that her company was ready and that CO2 capture technology was available. The following day, another Shell representative by the name of Mr. Seeley told this committee that it was a question of money, not innovation, and that his company was ready to use this technology.

I just wanted to set the record straight because we were given the impression that there was still some research to be done because the technology was not quite there yet. At least one company is ready to go.

My question is for Mr. Friesen.

As company director, surely you're familiar with the report entitled Canadian Upstream Oil and Gas Industry Financial Performance --Outlook 2006-2008, prepared for the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.

Are you the director of the company, or merely the person in charge of land reclamation?

[Bruce Friesen]

I am the latter, and so I offer my apologies. I am not familiar with the document you are displaying. I believe that when you were in Fort McMurray, you met my supervisor, Mr. Don Thompson. That would be part of his portfolio, but not part of mine.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

I see.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Yes, and I could remind M. Ouellet that on December 12 we will be devoting the entire meeting to witnesses speaking specifically on the question of sequestration.

Mr. Harris is next.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for your presentation. There have been some tough questions. I appreciate your responses to them.

The boreal forest is something that we, as Canadians, see as a national treasure. Although there are a couple of other instances of forests as large as that in other countries, we of course like ours the best.

I'm curious to know just what percentage of the boreal forest will be affected by the oil sands project. What percentage of the forest would be disturbed by the development?

Also, will there be any permanent irrecoverable or unreclaimable damage to that forest? How about the moose and the caribou--will we see a dying off, in some respects, or will we see a migration for a while?

Finally, is the sight of buffalo grazing on reclaimed land a realistic example of the future outcome of reclamation, or is that just a temporary dream that looks and sounds good? Is it something realistic that we can expect?

[Matt Carlson]

I apologize, but I don't know the exact percentage of the oil sands development in comparison to the boreal region. It is a large region. The oil sands area will disturb a large area, but thankfully other areas could remain intact if we plan ahead. That's really the opportunity presented by the boreal forest, because much of the area is not yet developed. If we take a large-scale perspective we can make decisions such as, let's use this area for development, and let's use this area to maintain ecological integrity, natural capital.

So I think that's the approach needed. The boreal framework that we support suggests that to maintain the ecological, cultural, and socio-economic integrity of the region we should set aside at least half the region for conservation and implement sustainable management practices in the remaining half. The boreal forest is one of the last places where we can actually do something like that.

On the effect on species such as the caribou and whether they will come back, we don't know. If it does happen it's going to take a long time. There's no evidence to date that woodland caribou will come back to an area that has been disturbed. That again underscores the need to set aside equivalent large-scale areas where caribou can be maintained if we're going to be developing an area like the oil sands, and there are good reasons for doing that due to the economic value.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Does anyone have an idea how much of the boreal forest would be disturbed by oil sands development, looking 20 years into the future?

[Prof. Alan Young]

From the figures I've seen, the mines themselves will eventually cover around 3,000 square kilometres. That's the current projection. Then I believe there will be an additional 149,000 square kilometres.

Is that right?

[Matt Carlson]

I think 149,000 total is the extent of the oil sands deposits. I just don't know what the percentage of that is when you compare it to the total size of the boreal region.

[Prof. Alan Young]

I'll certainly track down those figures and get them back to you.

I think it's important at one level to look at the boreal forest as a whole resource nationally and use that broader vision to benchmark areas of non-disturbance. But it's also important to look in situ at the planning that's going to happen to the communities. We're planning for the potential impacts on the communities and the irreplaceable ecological values, such as woodland caribou habitat and others.

What we don't want to see is an unnecessary loss of in situ values in trading those off. Some part of that is going to be a fact. But we also need to look at its footprint there and the strategic value to community health from an ecological perspective and an economic perspective, and really take a close look at how best to develop that resource. Then look beyond that resource as well for how we can include offsets. But I think it's a both/and situation that's very important to keep in mind.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Mr. Friesen.

[Bruce Friesen]

I felt I could respond to a couple of other elements of your question, Mr. Harris. I certainly agree with the concept of large-scale perspective and everything in balance, and I agree with the concept of recognizing a natural treasure in the boreal forest and a national economic treasure in the oil sands, and with a large-scale perspective getting the right balance.

But regarding your question with respect to bison, is it realistic to anticipate herds of large ungulates grazing on reclaimed land, certainly from everything we've seen the answer is yes. The bison initiative at Syncrude had two very different elements to it. One was research, and again, coming back to this question of the safety of a reclaimed landscape, so we grazed animals on the pasture and tracked the health of those animals to a very sophisticated level--accumulation of anything, or whatever. So there was definitely a research element, but in addition to that with the bison, we are working collaboratively with the community of Fort McKay, the Fort McKay First Nation, to help them explore, without any sort of preconception as to what the right answer is, potential benefits, potential value from reclaimed land to that community. And the herd of bison could well lead to a commercial ranching activity, but we have no preconceptions. It could lead to an ecotourism opportunity or it could lead to a supply of country food that is perhaps particularly abundant.

So without preconceptions, we're working with the community on a range of possible opportunities. I am out wearing a bison pin today.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

With that, we will conclude for today. Thank you again for those presentations and for the answers to the questions. This is becoming more interesting all the time, as the committee gains more information and tries to weigh off various testimony, one against the other and combined.

Do you have a question for the witnesses, Madame DeBellefeuille?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

No, my question is directed more to you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Perhaps I'll excuse the witnesses first, then. Thank you.

I will again thank you very much for your attendance and allow you to leave, and then we'll perhaps have a moment on committee business. Thank you.

Madame DeBellefeuille.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Earlier, Mr. Ouellet showed you a document in which various scenarios were presented. Revenues, taxes and a number of other related subjects were discussed.

I'm having trouble understanding some of the tables. I've spoken with the committee analyst. I'm wondering if I could possibly obtain this document in French. Perhaps we could ask the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers to oblige us. Maybe our clerk could take care of this. It's a rather interesting document. Among other things, it reports that over the next three years, taxes will decrease, along with royalties. I've managed to get some explanations, but I'd like a copy of the document, to further my understanding of the facts and in order to ask questions of our analyst.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I'm sure we could assist with it. I don't think it is a document that was tabled with the committee, so it wouldn't be our responsibility to do that, but I'm sure from the cooperation we've had thus far from, is it CAPP, the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers...? Yes, they've been pretty helpful thus far. So would you bring that up so the clerk can make a note, and I'll have him contact CAPP and see if we can't get a version for you, or if we can have it translated for you.

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Okay. I know this one. This is from one of the companies that belongs to the association, so it's an individual presentation of one of the companies, but we know this company. I think they would probably oblige you.

So we'll see if we can get that done. Thanks for the request.

If there's nothing further, I think we'll call it a day. Thank you very much again.