Natural Resources Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

When you talk about your nanotechnology and you're talking a nanoscience, the oil sands—this has potential to apply nanoscience to oil sands—where are you headed?

[Sherif Barakat]

The major challenge with oil sands is the energy and water used to get the oil. I think if we find technology that can reduce the energy for the steam, oil, and water used to get it, that would be a breakthrough, and maybe that breakthrough will come out of a combination of biotechnologies. If you can find some microbe or some bacteria somewhere that would chew that sand and put the oil on one side and the rest on the other side—that's imaginary thinking, but something that breaks the oil sands and their components by using less water and less energy is what you look for, because it has a major impact on how much we use water and energy in the oil sands to get the oil, aside from what we leave behind.

There are technologies now at our institute in Montreal that do environmental remedial sites, and it's biological, so we can use that to clean up some of the sites we left behind. The breakthrough may come as to how we can use less energy to get the oil from the oil sands. Look at life cycle. We still use quite a bit of energy.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

Any questions from my left, spatially speaking?

Okay, then Mr. Trost, from my right.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

A few questions have been asked about building codes, etc., and how many years they take to get in place, and I'm just wondering, from a purely educational perspective, it's one thing to say “thou shalt”. It's another thing to say that this is what we know works and educate the Home Builders' Association across the country.

I have a friend who's a professor of thermodynamics, Dr. Gabriel, and when he built his house in Saskatoon, he ended up cutting, I think, to a quarter, or even less than that, the heating bills of some of his neighbours. He got a 3,500 or 4,000 square foot house. It was massive, what he ended up cutting his heating and cooling bills by, just because he used some of his classroom knowledge.

I was wondering, can you just educate the home builders, without even enforcing provincial codes, etc.? Is there a component of that? Maybe that's not your department.

[Sherif Barakat]

No, actually the home builders have the same argument as you: that they don't need that code; that they can actually do what they need to do—the market will demand it.

It's not only the education of the home builders. The home builders association have a big manual for the R-2000 program and can distribute it and educate their builders on it. I think we have to educate the Canadian public, because they are not demanding energy efficiency. The first question when you go to a house is not how much energy it takes; it's whether it has any of the amenities you would like. I think the major educational need is the owners.

In construction, the owners—the ones who have the money—drive the agenda. So if you actually educate the owners, they will drive the agenda. That's what the builders will react to. So it's a major education piece saying it's $3,000 to $5,000 more on the house and it's worth it; it's going to pay back and be good for the environment.

If you give that education, then they're going to go and demand it, and therefore you actually beat the code. If you beat the code, you don't need a code. They beat it.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Yes. It just boggles my mind, because his basic after-tax rate-of-return equivalent for what he got from that house was unbelievable.

[Sherif Barakat]

There is a story in Saskatoon, which has been a hub of energy efficiency for a long time in housing. I heard that they saved 90% by using integrated energy systems.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Yes, that could be Dr. Gabriel's house.

[Sherif Barakat]

Yes, it could be.

So it can be done. Dr. Gabriel probably used his expertise to have things done cheaply, but if you go to a builder and it costs him $3,000 to $5,000 to go R-2000 and more—We have to be able to sell that house. You have to differentiate. You can differentiate on quality, but the market does not differentiate on that currently.

That's where you have to educate the people—to differentiate in energy and on quality other than having a Jacuzzi.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Well, he had a 4,000-square-foot house.

[Sherif Barakat]

That's a big house.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

It was somewhere in that neighbourhood, so it was a big house. When he resold it, he actually more than profited because of it.

The other basic question I have is, how much exchange do you do with other countries for information? One doesn't want to reinvent the wheel. I realize, having lived abroad, that we have very different building techniques from other parts of the world, but we do have certain overlap with the EU and places like that. How much interchange is there and how much back and forth swapping of information is there?

[Sherif Barakat]

We interact quite a bit internationally. Actually that's one of the things industry told us, that they need us to make the link. In the energy area we are representing Canada on the International Energy Agency committee on building and energy conservation in buildings.

In the fuel cell area we are very involved with other countries. We have an agreement with Japan and Germany and perhaps the U.S. that helps with fuel cell research.

We have large programs between NRC and France, NRC and Germany, and with Japan and the major G-8 countries, for different areas of research in which we put our money in the pot and fund joint research projects that benefit both sides.

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

The one complaint I've often heard from industry in the close to three years now that I've been an MP is that in R and D the research is very well done, but the development portion—getting it to market—is a sort of in-between section in the whole stage of developing from technology to commercial application; that in the middle there are a few weak links.

I don't know whether it's quite your area to comment on this, but I was curious whether you feel from your perspective, from your interaction with industry—you'd be more at the research stage than the final end stage—that this is accurate. If it is accurate, do you have any ideas to bridge that in-between gap to get things moving forward?

[Sherif Barakat]

Definitely the research in Canada is very strong as compared with other countries, as you said. It's well funded. We have a very respected research community, in academia and other institutions.

There aren't many that would take research the next step, to development. I mean, at NRC we do that all the time, because we work closely with industry on all our projects. As well, there is the challenge that Canada has most of its industry in small and medium enterprises. The entrepreneurial capacity to absorb research is challenged. We have to work out a solution to do that. Programs like IRAP do that, and other programs that the provinces put through to help commercialization. It's quite an effort now to do that.

Again, we would like to see companies taking recent research and growing in Canada, not companies taking research and in a few years selling and being moved somewhere else. That's the challenge for us in Canada, seeing the small companies in Canada grow, and keeping them in. This is where you hear about tax credits and a variety of other things.

So that's where the challenge is, getting the capacity for industry to get these innovations. Then you can talk about the link, about how we can actually work side by side with these companies. It's not only to transfer a piece of technology, to say, “Here, now do it”, but also to actually hold their hands while they're doing it, whether it's seconding people there or hiring a post-doctoral fellow to work with them on it, to grow it and so on.

The other challenge, naturally, is the amount of VC money in the country; that's versus other countries like the U.S. and Japan.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Okay, Mr. Trost, you're out of time.

Madame DeBellefeuille, you have a question?

[Claude DeBellefeuille, Bloc, Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC]

Yes, I do have a question.

Today's topic is being discussed against the backdrop of climate change. We want to generate energy as ecologically as possible in order to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. You claim that you set your priorities based on the needs expressed by industries. I take it by that you mean well-established industries capable of stating their requirements. This isn't necessarily the case for other sectors, such as the solar energy or geothermal energy sectors. According to witnesses, they don't necessarily get the full attention they deserve in order to flourish and develop on the R&D side and to attract manufacturers and consumers alike.

In terms of your budget, how much money would you need to truly expand research efforts in the field of solar and geothermal energy and to make these sectors attractive options? How much more money would you need to speed up the process and to develop this sector from a technological standpoint, when we talk about integration with the electrical grid and about everything that's now going on right now? What needs to be done in order to take this major step forward? Fundamentally, I don't think time is on our side and I think we need to step things up a notch. Ideally, what would like to see happen?

[Sherif Barakat]

I can't tell you how much money I need. Research can take all the money you throw at it. I think if you gauge it by the work that was done in 1984, I can't remember the exact budget in the energy division, but one of our large institutes will take $25 million to $30 million to start. We have an institute where the budget dedicated to fuel cells is $9 million to $10 million. In addition to that, we spend money on a horizontal program, so we spend about $14 million.

It depends on the area. I think fuel cells involve very technology-intensive development in materials, and so on. Industries probably spend $200 million to $250 million a year in research in that area, so in that small part you can see the contribution.

In other areas—maybe similar investment. IRAP, for example, is really helping SMEs. They say they are not getting attention. I think there is attention paid to SMEs. In 90 places in Canada they can find an IRAP rep and talk to them about development around funding research. The IRAP budget for contributions is now $80 million to $100 million. I can't give you an exact number because we really have to look at what we're going to do.

In wind energy, what do we have as a niche in Canada to be able to build it in Canada—other than what's built in Denmark, for example?

In solar energy, do we put more money in nanotechnology and energy—more in NINT? NINT is working on it now. Do we need to focus on it and give it more money to work on solar particularly? Would that accelerate it?

It's a difficult thing, but by putting more people on it and having Canadians focus together on some area we can accelerate research. That's what we're trying to do with national programs. We hope to get most researchers in Canada who work in one area to work collectively toward the same objective so we can beat other countries to it. That's one thing you can do, because there is funding in academia. We fund universities better than any other G-8 or G-7 country.

So the work is going very well, but can we put it all together? Then we can say what gaps we have and what money we can put in to accelerate it.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Alan Tonks]

Mr. Epp.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you for your presentation.

I've been interested in energy and energy conservation for many decades. I'm probably the oldest guy around here.

One of the things that intrigues me from a physics point of view is the huge amount of energy we waste in the whole world simply starting and stopping vehicles at stop signs and red lights. We grind that energy into heat via our brakes, and then we apply fuel to the engine in order to get back up to speed again.

I'm wondering whether you've done any research in trying to develop systems that will conserve that energy in an efficient way. I think the charging of batteries is not efficient because it adds so much mass to the vehicle. So are there any other ways?

The one I thought of was having a compressor that would pressurize a tank onboard and release that pressure to provide forward propulsion when you're ready to go again.

I guess my big question is, have you done research on this, and does it have any promise?

[Sherif Barakat]

No, we haven't. As you probably know, regenerative brakes now exist on hybrid cars. One of the reasons for their high efficiency is they actually use the energy from brakes to recharge the battery.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Yes, but you also have the weight of the batteries when you accelerate.

[Sherif Barakat]

Yes. We have to think about how we can use that energy and in what form can we store it. If you think of compressed air, you have to get it back into a compressor. So we have to send it back to electricity and to a compressor. I don't know. It's a very good idea that industry has used in the hybrid cars.

There's another area where we could use that. Some countries are working on how to get traffic flowing with fewer stops and starts. I've seen the work done in Finland, for example.

[Ken Epp, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

One area I thought of this weekend was that we need some smart lights. We have computer capacity now coming out of our ears, and I don't know why they can't have computers with sensors on the road.

Several times this week I had to stop just because there was a red light. There was no opposing traffic. I stopped because the light was red.

[Sherif Barakat]

Probably the road you were on did not have a sensor, because they use them extensively now.