Natural Resources Committee on April 25th, 2007

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thanks for your indulgence, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Well, you're on a roll there, Mr. Harris.

We're just going to ask the committee's indulgence for three more minutes, I'm told. We let you start and we'll let you wrap it up, Mr. Russell. This will be the last question.

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

I think we all appreciate your expertise and frankness today, Mr. Martin. It's been refreshing to have you here, there's no doubt.

I just have a specific question relating to Labrador. I understand your consultation with the Innu Nation; that's clear and transparent. But what is your company's position regarding consultations with the Labrador Métis Nation? The company has obligations to it.

My second question is about a project for 1,000 megawatts of wind energy that never went anywhere. What was your company's position regarding that particular project from a private developer?

[Ed Martin]

On the first question with respect to the Innu Nation discussions, some of this, Mr. Russell, you obviously know, so I'm only saying it for the benefit of some of the others.

From the Innu perspective, as I said earlier, they have a recognized land claim. That's under negotiation with the federal government, the province, and the Innu Nation. Obviously an impact benefits agreement is part of our project. We have started that in parallel because we know that's where it's going. It's just a fact, and we want to be ahead of that.

With respect to the Métis Nation, we respect them; there's no question about that, as they're such a large part of Labrador. But from an official company position—this is for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, I'm not speaking for the province—as a business we are looking at it in the sense that without a recognized land claim—I know it is being pursued, but there's not a recognized land claim there. In that particular event, we are looking at the Métis as another highly valued group of interest that we're going to consult with as much as possible, whatever is required. But as for doing anything more in depth than we would for other interested groups that we highly value as well, they'll be in that category.

That being said, we're open all the time to talk, to consult, to do as much as we can. We obviously make an effort to keep in contact with the Métis and to give them an understanding of what's going on. I'll say it here, and I'll say it again: the door is always open to consultation with anyone, at any time, including the Métis.

With respect to the thousand-megawatt proposal, it's an interesting situation. That's one of many proposals, let me start with that. All these companies that we are talking to appear to be sound and have some expertise. One particular company was in and was very vocal and public about how they wished to develop something. Several other companies came in and were not as vocal, and they visited Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro separately. So be it. Either way, all of those companies have received the same message. The energy plan is coming out. How these wind developments will be handled is a government policy question, and that has to be resolved before we can move ahead.

In any event, the question is, will the private companies handle it, or will hydro handle it, or will someone else? We don't know yet. But I know one thing. No matter what happens and how that question is resolved, the placement of a wind farm in any place in this country, whether it be Labrador, the island, or Ontario, is not a difficult business.

If you come out from that wind farm or any generation piece and you talk about integration with the rest of the electrical system, you talk about transmission through to market, and you talk about market development and sales, that's value-added with wind projects. That is where Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has to be involved, in any event, with respect to the generation piece, because we are responsible for maintaining the reliability of the system, we're responsible for getting it to market, and we're responsible for providing low-cost reliable power to the rest of the province. This is the easy part.

There's no wonder everyone is interested, and so they should be. It's good business. We will be involved, in any event, because the power has to be transmitted.

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

May I ask another quick question, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Why should we change this week?

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

We are seeing drastic changes in the weather. Do you have an action plan to guarantee the safety of transmission lines? We know full well that in a couple of years' time, there will be violent winds, great droughts and freezing rain. Do you have a plan to protect power transmission?

[Ed Martin]

I'm not sure of the events that will occur over time, but that being said, the short answer is yes, we have a long-term plan for maintenance of all of our assets. The way that works is that we take all of the considerations that you mentioned, the possibilities of that, plus others, including the age of the assets, manufacturers' specifications, and our own reliability standards, which on the island is higher than in many jurisdictions in the rest of the country because we are isolated. We have a very strong group of planning engineers that takes all of that data and produces long-term plans, not only for transmission; we also have long-term maintenance plans for our thermal generating stations, our hydro generating stations, and our diesel plants. It's very well documented, and what drives our maintenance work every year is a long-term plan.

In addition to that, at Churchill Falls, the upper Churchill, these plants will last forever if you maintain them properly, and that's our responsibility. Apart from the fact that we are committed to operational excellence and we're committed to delivering power to our customers, including Hydro-Québec, in an effective fashion, that contract will be up at a point in time, and when that contract comes up, naturally the intention and our responsibility are that we have a 100%-operating facility that's going to go on for a long time after the contract is up. From a CFLCo perspective, they also do long-range planning to cover all those eventualities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you again.

I think that wraps it up. Are there any further questions?

I'm going to ask the committee to just to hang on for a minute. I have a couple points of committee business. But before that, we'll excuse our witnesses.

Thank you very much again, Mr. Martin, for coming down, and Mr. Fedora as well for your generous time in coming up from New York. I think in the spirit of reciprocity I should give you fair warning that there are some Ottawa Senators headed your way tomorrow night to turn your lights out.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being with us. We look forward to a visit. I understand Mr. Bennett is going to take care of us when we get there.

[Ed Martin]

Yes, and I apologize that I won't be able to make it. That's why I came here today. He's not here today to say thank you very much, but he'll look after you. And if he doesn't, just let me know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Thank you very much.

We have a couple of orders of business. One recently circulated to you in both official languages is a request from Madame DeBellefeuille regarding additional witnesses.

Did you want to speak briefly to that, Mr. Ouellet?

[Christian Ouellet, Bloc, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Certainly, Mr. Chairman.

We've noticed that several of the witnesses we have heard from were generalists. They did not produce concrete facts, but rather a broad-based and horizontal approach to the matter. These people are fine, like the representative from the National Research Centre and the chair of the Canadian Electricity Association.

We thought it appropriate to suggest certain people who have specialized knowledge in the field of energy efficiency. Mr. Gilles Jean worked on extraordinary projects within the federal government, with CANMET. Mr. Vachon is an engineer who has travelled the world. He worked in Australia and Germany and now has expertise in pre-heating air which is unique in Canada. Mr. André Vinet is an engineer specializing in geothermics.

The committee did not have much of an in-depth discussion regarding geothermics. We do not know Mr. Luc Gagnon, but he is apparently very competent specifically with respect to power transmission and energy efficiency through interconnection. Finally, there's Mr. Guy Simard, who is a specialist in outdoor lighting.

I already mentioned that a great deal of power is lost because of poor outdoor lighting. Canada wastes more energy than any other country on outdoor lighting, far more than the United States and, obviously, far more than Europe.

If it were possible to hear from these people over two additional meetings, it would seem to me we could gain a better understanding of this subject.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

I don't think there's any doubt that adding additional witnesses of this calibre would certainly benefit the committee. My only concern is the time. We have done some juggling recently to add the municipal people, as suggested I think by Mr. Tonks. As well as the minister, we're having the National Energy Board and the Forest Products Association on the ninth. So we really are booked solidly through May until the break week.

I have to ask the committee whether you would want one more week of witnesses before we do our first draft report. Perhaps I could suggest that we go to the break week with the current schedule. In terms of the research, I would ask that you start to put a draft together without these witnesses, and then we can maybe have a week and add their comments at the end. That might speed it up.

I think we could probably still get it done. It hasn't been particularly controversial, and I don't expect we're going to have a lot of controversy with the report. Of course Mr. Holland is not here, so I can't say that for sure.

I would ask the committee members for your thoughts. We could maybe add two meetings and a few more witnesses at the end. In the course of our discussions through May, there may be one or two more you want to add. Are you all right with one more week after the break?

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I like your suggestion, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Okay. Fine. I'll leave it with the clerk. We'll see how many we can get, and if there are others, we'll fill them in.

In the week after the break we'll have witnesses on the Monday and the Wednesday, and then we'll go into consideration of the first draft. Okay. C'est tout.

Now, I also want to have a quick run over the schedule for next Monday. We're going at 6:30 in the morning. It's Bearskin Airlines at Esso Avitat. Directions have been sent to your offices. I just want to remind you that if you take taxis or anything to Avitat, I need receipts.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I take it that comes out of our $17, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

No, no. We'll take care of that for you. I think everything is covered.

Because Mr. Russell got his last question in, he has agreed to provide Screech on the way home from Labrador and Newfoundland.

We still have to work out the time there. We gave Mr. Russell an agreement that we would hear from some of the local people while we're on the ground.

If you could keep that to a couple of hours, I think we'd be back before 9:30. I think that's reasonable for the committee. It's a long day, in any event. Can I ask you to do that?

[Todd Russell, Liberal, Labrador, NL]

Yes, we will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Lee Richardson]

Are there any other questions? Do we have any other business that we need to wrap up? The minister is appearing on the ninth. We have confirmed that with the department. Is there anything else? Good.

We'll see you Monday morning at 6:30. Thank you.

We're adjourned.