Evidence of meeting #11 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aecl.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Linda Keen  Commission member, Ex-President, Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good morning, everyone.

I'll just start by going through a few issues briefly.

First of all, I want to say that this meeting is a continuation of a study of nuclear safety issues, including the safety issues at the Chalk River nuclear reactor. We started this study about two weeks ago. We had invited two witnesses, who had agreed to come. The first was the Hon. Gary Lunn, Minister of Natural Resources. The second was the President of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, Linda Keen, who had agreed to come but at the last minute cancelled.

Today we have three witnesses. The first is from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada. I'll go into a little more detail on these later. The second is Linda Keen, who is a commission member. The third is the Hon. Tony Clement, Minister of Health.

I want to explain that this committee, at the last meeting, had agreed to invite three witnesses. The clerk did invite all of those witnesses. One witness, Michael Burns, indicated in a letter, which you should all have in front of you, that he would not appear and he gave an explanation for why he wouldn't appear. I believe you all have the letter in front of you. When that was clear there was a space at the meeting, and I invited the health minister, the Hon. Tony Clement, to come to the meeting. He was actually the first witness requested by the Liberal Party on its list of witnesses submitted. So that's where we are right now.

I see we have someone...I just want to finish the introduction here.

We will get to the witnesses. We have the Auditor General and others from her office at the table, but I understand there is someone who wants to speak, I presume on a point of order.

Madame DeBellefeuille.

11 a.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to discuss the motion the Bloc Québécois sent to the clerk within the required timelines. There is no reference to it on the agenda, probably because of the importance of today's meeting, but I would like to make sure that the Bloc's motion will be given priority at our meeting on Thursday morning. It talks about assistance for the forestry and manufacturing sectors. I think everyone would agree to dealing with it as a priority on Thursday morning. Could we have that commitment this morning?

11 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Madame DeBellefeuille, that makes perfect sense to me, of course. I am guided--and more than guided, I am directed--by the committee. You have given appropriate notice, and that would seem to be a very reasonable approach. Thank you for that.

Mr. Anderson.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Chair, I'd like to ask about the status of a couple of the other motions.

Madam Bell brought a motion forward two or three weeks ago, and we had committed to looking at that once we reconvened. I am just wondering what her interest is in that, because that motion was brought forward quite a while before this one we are talking about now.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Yes, of course, we know the order of three motions that have been appropriately brought before the committee. It's up to each member to decide whether they would bring that issue to be dealt with by the committee or not. That is where we are now. It's up to the members to decide that.

Mr. Alghabra.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First I want to echo what has been said by Ms. DeBellefeuille, that perhaps the issue of motions that have been tabled and future witness lists should be discussed on Thursday. We have limited time today with the witnesses, and it looks like there might be consensus to deal with them on Thursday.

The other issue you touched upon was the invitation to Mr. Tony Clement. I want to draw your attention to a couple of quotes from the transcript that took place the last time we met. My colleague Mr. Proulx said:

Is it not a rule that witnesses must be approved by the committee, in the sense that just because one members wants 14 different witnesses that doesn't mean the committee will necessarily accept that?

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Absolutely.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

I also want to quote another statement, where I said, “Will we examine it”—“it” refers to the witness list—“and consider it as a committee and agree on which witnesses to invite or not?” The chair said yes.

And then, Mr. Chair, you said:

We may have to do that, the clerk and I, two members, without a meeting, if you want to go ahead with the meeting on the 29th and we can't get the witnesses you're talking about.

I responded by saying, “As long as we're all consulted on the witness list.”

And the chair said, “Sure. The clerk will do that. Agreed?”

I want to highlight that there was an explicit agreement that any new witnesses could not be added to the list without discussion with committee members. It's human nature to respond to such a unilateral act by becoming obstructionist, but because we're responsible and we want to hear from the witnesses today, we're going to agree. But we want to record our objection that this was an inexplicable action by the chair. I don't know why a witnesses was added, even though it was explicitly agreed....

Today we have a limited time to hear from witnesses. I'd like to have a commitment that if Ms. Keen agrees, the committee will be cooperative to invite her back again. That is a way that I think we can proceed. Even though Ms. Keen will only get an hour today, we could invite her back if we need to.

Thank you.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Alghabra.

We have two more people who have asked to speak. I would certainly like to get to the Auditor General with the important questions we have for her.

Ms. Bell.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Catherine Bell NDP Vancouver Island North, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With regard to the motion I introduced that was tabled, it's my understanding we had agreed to table that until after we heard from several of the witnesses. I'm quite happy to hear we are going to get into motions on Thursday; I don't want to prolong the debate on this today.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

It's entirely up to you whether you want to bring that forward on Thursday. You're certainly welcome to do that.

Madame DeBellefeuille.

11:05 a.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

I would like a clarification, Mr. Chairman. Will we be debating the motion put forward by the Bloc Québécois regarding the serious crisis facing the forestry industry at our meeting on Thursday morning? If I understand correctly, three motions have been presented, and normally, the committee should devote some time to debating them. I need to know what your position is as chair and whether or not committee members agree to debate the Bloc's motion on the crisis facing the manufacturing and forestry industries. Could you clarify that and make a commitment that we will in fact discuss the motion on Thursday morning?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Madame DeBellefeuille, as I said before, the chair can't determine the agenda of this committee. Only the members can do that. It's up to the members to decide, through debating the motions, what issues they want to deal with next.

I am always here to do the will of the committee.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Claude DeBellefeuille Bloc Beauharnois—Salaberry, QC

With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, I would point out that it is up to you to set aside time for debating motions before we invite further witnesses to appear on the issue we are studying at the moment.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Anderson.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Mr. Chair, I think we need to have a meeting to discuss future agendas. We've done this a couple of times and the agenda keeps shifting. I think we need to take some time on Thursday to discuss in what direction the committee wants to go. If the decision is made to go in the direction Ms. DeBellefeuille would like to go, we'll do that. But we need to have a meeting to talk about which of the several future agendas that we've picked in the past we are going to choose to see through.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Is it agreed that on Thursday we come here to deal with any of the motions the members would like to bring forward?

Mr. Boshcoff.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Specific to that, we very clearly established forestry as our top priority for this coming year. Except for two members, we established that forestry would be discussed at this meeting and until our break. That was read into the record and we all agreed to it near the end of the last term.

So I would take considerable objection to changing that priority. People across the industry are ready to come forward as witnesses, and we should begin that process as soon as possible.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

That makes perfect sense to me. Of course, the agenda has already been changed; we're having these meetings. But we'll go ahead from there, absolutely. I don't see a problem with that. It's up to the committee to decide on Thursday through discussion. I'd certainly love to get back to the agenda we agreed to in the last term.

Can we now go to the business before us today? In the first hour today our witness is Sheila Fraser, Auditor General of Canada. With her is Nancy Cheng, assistant auditor general, and Jean-Pierre Plouffe, principal.

Madam Fraser, I assume you have an opening presentation. Go ahead, please.

January 29th, 2008 / 11:10 a.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We thank you for the invitation to discuss our 2007 report of the special examination of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. As you mentioned, I'm accompanied today by Nancy Cheng, assistant auditor general, and Jean-Pierre Plouffe, audit principal, who are responsible for this examination.

I would like to begin with a few words about special examinations. Special examinations are a key component of the control and accountability framework for federal crown corporations. Our mandate for such examinations is set out in part X of the Financial Administration Act. The act requires the examiner to express an independent opinion to the boards of directors on whether the corporation has systems and practices in place to provide reasonable assurance that its assets are safeguarded and controlled; its financial, human, and physical resources are managed economically and efficiently; and its operations are carried out effectively.

Under the Financial Administration Act, almost all federal crown corporations are subject to a special examination at least once every five years, and the results are to be provided to the board of directors of the corporation. It is the board that decides if and when to make the special examination report public. Although there is no legislative requirement to do so, it is the government's intention to have these reports made public. Since March 2004, most crown corporations have posted the reports on their websites.

Although our special examination reports are addressed to the boards of directors of the corporations involved, we may bring the information in the report to the attention of the appropriate minister and of Parliament when we deem it appropriate.

Mr. Chairman, I will now turn to the special examination of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited.

We presented our report to the board of directors of AECL on September 5, 2007. On September 25, 2007, I submitted a copy of the report to Minister Lunn. In early October, I met the minister to discuss the contents of the report. On January 9, 2008, the corporation posted the special examination report on its website.

The areas that we examined included governance, risk management, research and development, products and services management, and the corporation's environmental and sustainable development practices.

We excluded the area that is within the mandate of the regulator, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission (CNSC). We did not do a technical assessment of the safety and security of the corporation's nuclear research facilities or waste management practices. Nor did we assess any of the technical design aspects of the corporation's products and services, whether nuclear or non-nuclear.

We reported a significant deficiency related to unresolved strategic challenges, which I will speak about in a moment. But first, let me explain that a significant deficiency is one that prevents or puts at material risk the organization's ability to achieve one or more of its statutory control objectives in support of its mandate. In particular, these objectives are: to safeguard and control the organization's assets; to manage its resources economically and efficiently; and to carry out its operations effectively.

We found and reported on three unresolved strategic challenges that have long-term funding requirements and together could prevent the corporation from achieving its mandate. These challenges are, first, the completion and licensing of the dedicated isotope facility for the production of medical isotopes; the development and licensability of the advanced CANDU reactor in time for the market requirements; and the replacement of aging facilities at the corporation's Chalk River Laboratories.

I would now like to address each of these challenges, starting with the dedicated isotope facility.

In 1996, AECL undertook a project to construct two MAPLE reactors and a new processing facility at the Chalk River laboratories for a customer to produce medical isotopes. This facility, known as the dedicated isotope facility, was designed to replace the national research universal reactor in the production of isotopes for the health and medicare industry. The NRU reactor is nearing the end of its useful life and is over 50 years old.

The dedicated isotope facility was originally planned to be producing isotopes by the end of 2000. There have been delays and increased costs, and the corporation has not yet resolved certain technical issues. At the end of March 2007, significant investments were still needed. When we completed our examination, AECL indicated that it expected to meet the in-service date of October 2008 for the first MAPLE reactor and the fall of 2009 for the second one, dates that are specified in the revised 2006 contract with its customer for the production of medical isotopes.

The second challenge relates to the development of a new generation of CANDU reactors. Because of changes in market conditions, the corporation changed its design to a larger reactor. This design change, along with more stringent licensing requirements and an enhanced project management approach, resulted in a significant increase in the cost estimates. At the end of March 2007, costs to complete the design of the new CANDU reactor were estimated at $400 million. Moreover, citing resource constraints, the regulator withdrew its service to provide pre-licensing assessment for AECL, putting the corporation at a competitive disadvantage in marketing the new reactors.

The third challenge involves the replacement of AECL's aging facilities at Chalk River, known as the Chalk River laboratories. AECL estimated that it needs to increase its operating and capital investment by some $600 million over the next five years and about $850 million over the next 10 years to address fire and building code deficiencies as well as licensing, health, safety, and security issues. A significant increase in funding is needed, but the source of the funds has yet to be identified.

We discussed all our observations and recommendations with senior management and the board, and they have agreed with us.

These challenges are long-standing issues that we have noted in previous special examination reports. Overall, the government needs to have a strategy for nuclear energy and to provide AECL with a clear mandate and strategic direction in that regard. The lack of clear direction is exacerbated by the fact that on numerous occasions the government has not approved AECL's corporate plan.

In 2002, we reported that its corporate plan had not been approved for seven years. In the 2007 report, we noted that the 2007-08 plan was not approved, and as far as we know, it has still not been approved by government.

In closing, I would like to clarify two points.

First, in 2002 we presented our special examination report to the Board of Directors of AECL. We also wrote to the Minister of Natural Resources and provided him with a copy of the report. The minister responded but did not choose to meet us. At that time, special examination reports were not made public and it was not common practice for ministers to request meetings to discuss the reports.

Second, as I noted earlier, we did not examine the area under the mandate of the regulator. When we conducted our examination in 2007, we were not made aware of any regulatory compliance issues related to the operation of the NRU reactor. Aside from the need and challenge involved in replacing this reactor, there is no mention of issues in the report that could be linked to the recent extended shutdown of the NRU reactor.

That concludes my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee might have.

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much for your presentation.

We'll go directly to questioning now, to the official opposition first.

Mr. Boshcoff, you have seven minutes.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be sharing my time with the honourable member from Brant.

Ms. Fraser, on a number of occasions over the past week you've been asked about the late-night dismissal of the former president of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, Linda Keen, and have commented that you felt it sent a chill through the public service.

My questions, then, are the following. In what way has this firing sent a chill through the public service? In your view, what may be some of the repercussions and consequences of that chill? And on a more personal basis, do you yourself feel this chill?

11:20 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My comments were largely in relation to the independence that is required by quasi-judicial or regulatory bodies. Obviously, I'm not going to comment on the specific events that have occurred because I have no information other than what has been reported in the press. I prefer to do audits before I make comments on those sorts of things.

Clearly, I think there are questions that arise about the independence of regulatory bodies, how they are to be dealt with, and what the protocol is within government. There would certainly seem to be, at a minimum, a lack of clarity around some of this.

I think many of us, agents of Parliament and others, work very hard to ensure that we have independence and the perception of independence when we carry out our work. My comments were related to that, in that this could affect that.

I think time will tell, going forward--once, perhaps, more facts are known about this particular situation--how regulatory bodies are dealt with.

In my case, I can assure you that I have never felt that there have been any attacks or influence upon the independence of the Office of the Auditor General.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Boshcoff Liberal Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fraser, you were appointed by a Liberal prime minister in 2001. Is that correct?