Natural Resources Committee on March 6th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Blenkhorn.

[Diana Blenkhorn]

Quickly, on the concept of a forum, I agree with Terry. You were talking about education and getting a forum maybe into a more academic level.

Coming back to Mr. Ouellet's question, we have a number of universities in Canada that don't even teach wood engineering courses. It's all steel and concrete types of engineering. We need to do better at that; those need to be prerequisites. We've talked about it being a benchmark industry.

There is a forum scheduled. It happens that Halifax is the North American host this year in June of the woodlands forum, and there are areas where that can be modified. I'm not directly involved in it, it's through the Canadian Woodlands Forum, but I do know a forum has been scheduled. The reason I know is that we're trying to bring in some of our colleagues from the United States to improve relationships, have them attend and actually participate. That's not taking away from Canadian market share; that's actually building relationships so we would increase market share.

I think the idea of the forest strategy is always a good one. I don't want to embarrass myself, not knowing the exact status of the forest strategy, and having been a signator to the last ones, but I do believe that there is a forest strategy in existence.

I think the momentum of its development and the undertaking gets lost over time, and sometimes those things get lost not because people are not well-intentioned, but because people have way too many things on their plates. Our sector has gone through a number of issues. We've gone through the ongoing litigation with the United States, then immediately after that we've gone through the economic challenges that are before us, and we've gone through job losses. There's a major issue to deal with every day with fewer people and less talent, only because that's our mechanism of responding and cutting costs, not because the commitment's not there.

I think those are great suggestions, and I'd like to look at them further.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

We now go to Mr. Comuzzi for up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If you recall, in the last meeting I didn't have the opportunity to ask our witnesses a couple of fundamental questions, and I wonder if my colleagues would mind if I get their evidence on the record on some pretty fundamental issues with respect to the forestry industry. Would that be in order?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Absolutely, Mr. Comuzzi.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Mary Granskou—I pronounced it right; you had trouble with that name, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you for that. It's not that tough a name either.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

She was here on the boreal forest. All I ask is that when we discuss the boreal forest, which is so critical to the future of the forestry industry in all of Canada, I think, everyone will agree it's not just trees. Some 30% of the boreal forest is made up of the wetlands, the creeks, the rivers, the streams, the ecology centres, and the fishing and spawning grounds. That's all included when we talk about the boreal forest, and we should never lose sight of the fact that that is part of the boreal forest. It's not just trees. A lot of people out there who are not conversant with the forestry industry don't realize that. So I'd like put that on the record.

I don't want to get into an argument with my colleague over here from Sault Ste. Marie, but you can't be a plagiarist in this meeting. Mr. Allan, from the Council of Forest Industries--and I'm sure Diana is going to agree with this--said that when we do pass the motion that was presented a week or two ago, that whatever comes of the round table of experts in the forestry business in Canada, there may be three solutions. We can't look at forestry in all of Canada in one spectrum. There may be solutions that involve British Columbia and Alberta, which would be different from the solutions that would involve Ontario and Quebec.

Diana, I'm sure you agree--different solutions in eastern Canada.

So we may have three areas of coming up with recommendations that we're going to ask this committee to study with respect to the different areas in forestry in Canada. I think that's absolutely critical, because what happened in the softwood lumber deal is nobody wanted to acknowledge that there were three fundamentally different industries in Canada and we spent too much time in that area. So let's not waste this next venture into the forestry industry in that area.

And then Mr. Roberts went into great lengths about the future of the forestry industry and where we sit on global markets. He talked about what has happened to the newsprint industry in Canada and how we are no longer competitive in that area and perhaps it's time that we looked at areas other than newsprint. He wanted to spend a lot of time to find out if the kraft industry can still be resuscitated and whatever we can do to enhance the kraft industry before we lose all of our markets to Southeast Asia, China, and India.

I asked him outside, Mr. Chairman, if he would be willing to.... As you know, we have a suggestion or a motion before the committee. After we hear our evidence--hopefully everybody will agree to this motion whenever it is put--we want to have a round table or a summit on the forestry industry in Canada. We want to bring our very best people together, which does not necessarily mean politicians, and find out just what we should be doing with respect to the future of the forestry industry.

If that's okay, those are the three recommendations I'd like to leave on the table. I don't think anybody would have any dispute with those. Am I correct in that assumption?

[A voice]

Sure.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I agree with you, Professor Pelton, and I was happy to hear the statement that we have the best research in Canada, yet our forestry business is in difficult shape. The thought that crossed my mind is that obviously the forestry business isn't listening to you folks.

Go ahead.

[Prof. Robert Pelton]

That's a hot one. I'm not sure I'd even want to comment on that. I'm not an expert in the forest business.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Okay, you don't want to comment, but that's a thought that goes across.... If we have the best research, we have to start listening to it.

I want to go to Mr. Fiset. You're really the paradox of a former witness we had here, Avrim Lazar, who was very good. I agree with a lot of the things Avrim says, but one of the things I disagree with—and he knows this, so I'm not telling tales out of school—is that he has a concept of bigness: what we need is huge mills at strategic locations across Canada where the fibre supply is plentiful.

My position is simply—and somebody else acknowledged this—that we're losing the strength of what you stand for in the forestry industry in Canada, and that's a single-industry forestry town.

I know your company. You're three generations. You have three brothers working in this country. There was your grandfather, and then your father, and now you have three brothers. And you're doing well and you know everything there is to know about your industry. If we lose that in forestry, if we lose families like yours or people like you in these single-industry communities, I don't think our forestry business has a chance.

So I like what you say, and I'm ready to go to the post to make sure that we have and retain people in the forestry industry who know something about the forestry business, but particularly who support the single-industry towns. But I want to ask you a couple of questions.

You said retraining was not.... I want your answer on this. Retraining is important. If we can retrain the forestry worker who's now displaced, until he gets placed back in, in other things that are analogous to the forestry business--road building, other things--without a lot of retraining, would you agree with doing that?

[Terry Fiset]

Well now, definitely, people have to have an income, and you have to keep communities alive, so if there is an opportunity for retraining on different equipment for different types of things, forestry equipment.... There are a lot of contractors out there who have equipment that is sitting idle now. They will be looking at road construction and other avenues, different jobs that are put out there.

The only context with respect to retraining is the stigma and whether retraining means that's a done industry, so let's train in computers, or you're going to maybe be a professor or something. Definitely, something that's related to the resources, whether that's forestry, mining, or any of the other sectors, is fine.

[Joe Comuzzi, Conservative, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Is my time up, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Comuzzi; your time is up.

So we now go, for the second round of questioning, to the official opposition. Mr. Tonks, you have up to five minutes.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank all of you for being here, and welcome you, as the chair has done.

Just to reinforce it, I'd like to welcome you in particular. In another life as a municipal politician in Toronto, I spent a lot of time in northern Ontario in the vicinity of Kapuskasing, specifically the Adams Mine, and visited Englehart, and talked about taking our waste stream, in particular waste wood, and trying to supply the pressed wood company and the framing company in Englehart with wood supply, which would be good for urban people to do that.

I'd just share that with you. I'm always quick to talk with a reeve, not having been a reeve, but my dad was for a long time, and I think it's a great institution, so keep up the good work.

I have a couple of questions.

Mr. Gray, you talked about the social contract, and the basis of the social contract—there was another social contract in the history of Ontario, but we'll keep away from that—to keep mills in communities where wood supply is the product. That seems to me a philosophy that in the short term we haven't been able to keep. Our challenge is in the short term right now, how to go through this restructuring and so on.

Could you expand a little? One of the devices that you used was the Forest Stewardship Council and using the FSC preference in procurement at different levels of government. Could you just expand a little on that? We are looking at some short-term solutions from a committee perspective.

Also, I think, Jeff, you talked about a pilot project to offset losses due to restructuring. Again, this is a short-term adjustment. I wonder, in that pilot project, if you could just expand on how this committee could make some recommendations.

From an academic perspective, how quickly, for example, in bio-refining, can you get from the concept of bio-refining to commercialization? It seems to me that that's an area that, in the short term, if we could accelerate that, we could add some high value to an industry that in many communities is waning.

I guess my final question is to Ms. Blenkhorn. You had said that there were recommendations that had been made, but you didn't go into those recommendations at the end of your presentation. Could we get a copy of that, or could you just give us a quick summary of what they were?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

The question was directed to Mr. Pelton and Mr. Rosenberg.

[Alan Tonks, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

There were three questions, and maybe Mr. Pelton could--

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Mr. Rosenberg and Mr. Pelton.

[Prof. Robert Pelton]

On bio-refining, I'm not an expert in bio-refining, but it's an umbrella word that describes a very big vision. And as with many big things, some things will come very quickly.

I think there are two milestones, two big issues to look for. One is finding a use for lignin in wood, which is the brown part of wood, and another big milestone would be if someone figures out how to get ethanol very efficiently out of wood. I'm not saying this is a good idea, but if this happens, it will be a disruptive influence in the whole sector. These things could come very quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Ms. Blenkhorn.

[Diana Blenkhorn]

I think your question was on the recommendations we made as alternative solutions. I will send the information, but in summary, so it's on the record, right now the method of dealing with it is prohibition of movement and there are prohibition requirements placed on various landowners. What happens with a prohibition of movement is you may have a beetle find, one beetle in a trap in the northeast quadrant of your property--you own 1,000 hectares--and your entire property receives a prohibition of movement.

Because we have a fair bit of background doing certification of movement--i.e., the Canada-U.S. certificates of origin--we've proposed implementing a control of custody certificate program that would monitor at all times where wood was moving, basically from the stump to the grave, if you will, and provide a database that could be used not just for Atlantic Canada or this beetle, but once implemented it would help anywhere in Canada when you need it. If you had an outbreak, you would be able to trace back for movement.

The response in that instance was that the act, which is the Plant Protection Act of Canada, required under ministerial authority a movement certificate issued by the government, which is basically a piece of paper--it doesn't have a database with it, it doesn't have anything. The difference, whether it was practical and effective or just provided by legislative authority, meant this went away.

That's a short summary.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Tonks. Your time is up.

[Diana Blenkhorn]

Even the bureaucrats agreed it was a preferred system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you.

Could you send that information to the clerk so it can be distributed to all committee members?

Monsieur Ouellet, up to five minutes.