Evidence of meeting #4 for Natural Resources in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clause.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gordon Edwards  President, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility
Michel Duguay  Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval
Brenda MacKenzie  Senior Counsel, Environment Canada, Department of Justice Canada
Dave McCauley  Acting Director, Uranium and Radioactive Waste Division, Department of Natural Resources
Jacques Hénault  Analyst, Nuclear Liability and Emergency Preparedness, Department of Natural Resources

November 29th, 2007 / 9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good morning, everyone.

We have two parts to our meeting today, as everyone knows. In the first part, we have two witnesses. In the second part, we will start clause-by-clause consideration of this bill.

We're continuing with our review pursuant to an order of reference of Tuesday, October 30, 2007, on Bill C-5, An Act respecting civil liability and compensation for damage in case of a nuclear incident, the Nuclear Liability and Compensation Act.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here today. I will take your presentations, up to ten minutes each, in the order that you're listed on the agenda today.

We'll start with Gordon Edwards, president of the Canadian Coalition of Nuclear Responsibility. We'll then go on to Michel Duguay, a professor from the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering at Université Laval.

Mr. Edwards, go ahead please, for up to 10 minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Gordon Edwards President, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee.

My name is Gordon Edwards. I have a PhD in mathematics. I graduated originally with a gold medal in mathematics and physics from the University of Toronto. I have been involved for over 30 years as president of the Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility and also as a consultant to both governmental and non-governmental bodies on nuclear issues, on issues related to nuclear safety and radioactive materials.

Before it is used in a nuclear reactor, uranium fuel can be safely handled using only a pair of gloves. Inside the reactor, however, hundreds of new radioactive substances are created, called fission products. These are literally the broken pieces of uranium atoms, which are split in order to produce energy.

The fission products are millions of times more radioactive than the fresh uranium fuel. Immediately after discharge from a reactor, a single CANDU fuel bundle can deliver a lethal dose of penetrating radiation in just 20 seconds to any unprotected person standing one metre away. Indeed, the irradiated fuel is so radioactive that is has to be cooled under 14 feet of circulating water for at least 7 to 10 years or it will spontaneously overheat, experience self-inflicted damage, and release radioactive gases and vapours into the surrounding atmosphere.

Inside the core of a reactor, even after the fission process has been completely terminated, the radioactivity of the fission products is so intense that the core continues to generate 7% of full power heat. That's an awful lot of heat, and if adequate cooling is not provided, even after complete shutdown of the reactor itself, the residual heat is more than enough to melt the core of the reactor at a temperature of 5,000°F.

When the fuel melts, large quantities of fission products are released as gases, vapours, and ashes. I have provided the committee members with excerpts from four official Canadian documents. These excerpts confirm the fact that core melting accidents are possible and even probable in Canada, if Canada chooses to build a large fleet of nuclear reactors.

Unfortunately, committee members, I neglected to bring the bag that has those exhibits in them. I'm going to deliver it later today to the clerk, and you will be getting copies of these. They are available in both French and English.

The official bodies that produced these statements, which I have prepared for you, are the Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power Planning, the Atomic Energy Control Board, the federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, and the Select Committee on Ontario Hydro Affairs.

As a participant in the deliberations of both the Royal Commission on Electric Power Planning and the Select Committee on Ontario Hydro Affairs, I can assure the committee members that the rationale for this bill, C-5, is based on the potential damages of fuel melting accidents. Without fuel melting, it is not possible for a nuclear accident to have off-site property damage exceeding $10 million.

However, the consequences of core melting accidents can typically run into the tens of billions of dollars or even hundreds of billions of dollars and can make large regions of land uninhabitable for a considerable period of time.

In the case of such a catastrophe, Bill C-5 limits the liability of nuclear operators to a very modest amount. It eliminates all liability for nuclear equipment suppliers, even if they supplied defective equipment that caused the accident, yet it does not address any important measures that would limit the overall financial liability to the Canadian taxpayer or the social liability of any affected population.

The Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility feels that it is important for the elected representatives of the people to ensure that the nuclear industry is held publicly accountable and to ensure that the best interests of Canadians are not compromised in order to serve the interest of the nuclear industry.

We believe the figure of $650 million cited in the act has no sound scientific or financial basis, and this arbitrary amount merely serves to distract the committee from much more important questions. For instance, just how great might the total damage be in case a core melt accident occurs here in Canada? Have these studies been carried out? Have they been given to the committee members? Have they been discussed in Parliament? What if such an accident occurred at the Pickering site? How much of the Toronto population would have to be evacuated and for how long? How far would the radioactive contamination spread?

It is sobering to realize that even today, 20 years after the Chernobyl accident in the Ukraine, some sheep farmers in northern England and Wales still cannot sell their mutton because of radioactive contamination of the meat, caused by radioactive cesium-137 given off by the Chernobyl reactor.

Will farmers in the Ottawa Valley and Quebec have to curtail their agricultural practices following a nuclear accident near Toronto, such as those envisaged in this bill? Is the Canadian Parliament expected to pass this Bill C-5 to limit the liability of the nuclear industry without giving any careful thought to the question of limiting the ultimate financial liability to the crown?

One way of limiting public liability would be to require that any new reactors be sited far away from large population centres. Observers both inside and outside of the nuclear industry have commented that the Pickering reactors are among the worst-sited reactors in the world because of the catastrophe potential, so close to such a large and vital city. Such a catastrophe could be realized in the event not only of a severe industrial accident, but also as the result of external causes, such as a large earthquake, causing multiple pipe breaks in the reactor core area, or an act of deliberate sabotage or terrorism, which can no longer be discounted as fanciful.

I was one of the fortunate few to attend a 1977 conference of the nuclear fuel cycle, sponsored by the International Atomic Energy Agency, held in Salzburg, Austria. At that conference, one of the leading American nuclear scientists, Alvin Weinberg, spoke for an hour to an audience of about 300 nuclear scientists from every corner of the world. His message was stark. He said: We nuclear scientists have not faced up to the full consequences of complete success. If we succeed in building tens of thousands of nuclear reactors around the world, which we must do to make any noticeable dent in the world's use of petroleum, we can expect to have a core meltdown approximately every four years. The lesson is clear. W e must stop building these reactors near large cities.

I was very impressed by the sincerity of Mr. Weinberg's proposal. In fact, he recommended that large tracts of land should be set aside specifically for nuclear reactors and nothing else. As he put it, if the reactors are going to melt down, let them do so there, far away from the population centres.

Alvin Weinberg's proposals may strike some of us as extreme. But perhaps it is only because we have not taken the time and trouble to educate ourselves about the science behind core melting and the possible consequences of such events. In 1978, one full year before the Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania, the Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power Planning spent several months on the question and found that if there were 100 reactors operating in Canada at some future date, then under the worst assumptions of probability, there could be a core meltdown here in Canada once every 40 years.

In his report, Arthur Porter, a professor of engineering from the University of Toronto, wrote that serious consideration should be given to building any new nuclear reactors underground, so that the radioactive releases from an uncontained core meltdown could be largely trapped in subterranean caverns and prevented from spreading over vast land areas.

Another way of limiting the nuclear liability of the crown and of the Canadian population is to invest in other energy technologies that can reduce greenhouse gases faster and more efficiently than nuclear power can possibly do, without posing the same risks of catastrophic impact, requiring bills such as this Bill C-5, which is available for no other industry that I am aware of.

According to a report issued in May 2007 by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, nuclear power currently provides about 16% of the world's electricity, which amounts to about 2.7% of total energy use. In the next quarter century, the IPCC estimates that nuclear power could increase its contribution from 16% to 18% of electricity supply. This is far from solving the climate change problem.

Meanwhile, the same IPCC report states that renewable electricity currently accounts for 18% of electricity worldwide—that's the target in 25 years for nuclear—and that in the next 25 years renewable electricity could account for 35% of all electricity. That's twice as much as nuclear can provide in the same timeframe. Evidently, renewables are a much better bet than nuclear, at least for the next 25 years, in the opinion of this estimable panel.

Germany decided about 10 years ago to phase out of nuclear power. They have shut down two of their seventeen reactors already and will soon shut down a third one. In that same 10-year period Germany has installed 20,000 megawatts of wind power. That's more than the entire Canadian nuclear program. Meanwhile, Germany is leading all other European countries in reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

So perhaps instead of just passing Bill C-5 , the committee members should be refusing to pass it and recommending that a comprehensive inquiry into the risks and benefits of nuclear energy, in comparison with other energy technologies, be undertaken. In the public interest such an inquiry is long overdue. It would be a shame for this committee to approve a piece of legislation that is so peripheral to the larger issues.

Ultimately, Bill C-5 is based on much misinformation, and perhaps even a profound misunderstanding of the nature of the energy choices that we all must confront. I am concerned about the marginalization of our democratic institutions. I am concerned about the problem of governance of this industry. I do not believe, if we are going to embark upon an enlargement of this industry, it is responsible to continue to allow it to operate outside of public scrutiny, outside of responsible accounting, and I would hope this committee would do something about that.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. Edwards.

Now to Michel Duguay from the Université Laval, for up to 10 minutes.

Go ahead, please.

9:15 a.m.

Prof. Michel Duguay Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Thank you for the invitation, honourable members.

I hold a BSc in physics from the University of Montreal. I received a PhD in nuclear physics at Yale University back in 1966. I then worked for AT&T Bell Laboratories in New Jersey for 21 years, with a three-year leave of absence to Sandia National Laboratories in Albuquerque, New Mexico, where I worked on X-ray laser devices.

In 1988 I left AT&T and came to Laval University, where I have been a member of the department of electrical engineering and computer science.

I think you probably received the summary of my presentation. It's only a couple of paragraphs. In any case, I'll be going over it.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Just go ahead, please, Mr. Duguay.

9:15 a.m.

Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Prof. Michel Duguay

Okay, I just wanted to make sure.

I find that in formulating this new Bill C-5, there are two important aspects. One of them is compensation for damages suffered, and the other is the expansion of nuclear power.

The nuclear power industry has been saying that they need this bill in order to meet international conventions, and also to perhaps reassure the public that if there were an accident, there would be proper compensation.

As you all know, the city that is most threatened by a major accident is Toronto. In the Toronto area, $650 million would come to a compensation of about $200 per person or house. Many people feel that this is not very much. In the United States, the figure that is thrown about is $9 billion for a major accident at one nuclear reactor site. That would come to $3,000 per person or house.

The Pembina Institute in Canada has estimated that an accident in the Toronto area would cause damages of about $1 trillion. That would come to $300,000 per person or house. In my opinion, that would not be a desirable event and sufficient compensation, even at that high figure.

The second aspect is expansion of nuclear power because of the climate change question.

The first aspect I address in the short resumé I sent you is that there is room for liability coverage in the case of nuclear reactors, because if you read the AECL documentation, which I do every year, and also the CNSC documentation, you find that all of these people in the nuclear industry are terribly worried about a major accident. It's a nightmare, and they have confessed it, even in public.

So a major accident is possible, and in the resumé I sent around, I quote AECL in 2002, where they addressed the question of the positive nuclear coolant void reactivity coefficient. In the existing CANDUs, if you have a loss of cooling water, or bubbles, or anything that diminishes the density of water trying to cool the reactor, the nuclear reactions increase in their intensity. This is called a positive feedback, and this feature has been recognized by AECL as being undesirable.

It makes the old CANDU reactor illegal in England or in the United States. It does not meet the security standards of England or the United States. So in their effort to develop a new reactor, AECL has insisted on having a negative coolant void reactivity problem, but as far as I know, it still has not been solved completely.

That makes the old CANDU reactors very dangerous. I'm upset by the fact that instead of building new reactors, which are far safer, they retube a design that was made in the 1970s.

In the last four decades, there has been tremendous progress in all areas of technology, including nuclear power, so I find it very upsetting that they're proud of doing retubing contracts here and there, in New Brunswick, at Bruce around Toronto, and now they want to do Gentilly in Quebec. It's just going back to a design of the 1970s, a design that does not meet the security standards of England or the United States, the first two nuclear countries in history.

Regarding expansion, I work in the field of renewable energy, and I was at a convention on wind power about a month ago. What's amazing about wind power is that it has been increasing by 25% a year for the last decade. Canada is positioning itself in this area. Ontario already has 400 megawatts of installed power. Quebec has about 500 megawatts. B.C. has a big project to have 350 megawatts near Prince Rupert, with further expansion to 15,000 megawatts in the coming years.

In Europe, the European Union passed a law in September that calls for the production of 20% of electrical power in the European Union by renewable energy by 2020.

In the United States, people are talking about having 25% renewable electricity by the year 2025.

If you look at the wind energy maps and the solar energy maps that are available online, you will find that Canada is blessed with tremendous wind and solar resources.

The main point I want to make to the Minister of Natural Resources is that if we manage—if you manage with us correctly—our natural resources, which include wind and power and geothermal, we could easily increase government income by a tremendous amount and lower the income taxes.

I will stop here.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Monsieur Duguay.

We will now begin the questioning, for up to seven minutes in each round, starting with the official opposition.

Mr. St. Amand.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Dr. Edwards and Dr. Duguay, for your presentations this morning.

Dr. Edwards, you indicated that $650 million is a “modest amount”. That may well be the case, but you would agree, surely, that it's a less modest amount than the current limit of $75 million.

9:20 a.m.

President, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility

Gordon Edwards

It's rather like fixing a leaky rowboat by plugging 10% of the holes. I don't think this is really solving the problem. The problem is that you have an enormous catastrophe potential, and if the object of this legislation is to serve the interests of the Canadian public, I think it does a poor job.

In the United States of America, the Price-Anderson Act, which is the comparable legislation in that country, was passed at least 10 years before there was even thought about having such legislation here in Canada—the old Nuclear Liability Act—and they started back then at $560 million as the liability. They are now up to the billions of dollars in terms of nuclear liability. They're talking about $9.2 billion. That's a liability cap, because they know the damages would be far more than that.

I believe this legislation is....

Frankly, I regard it as a dishonest question. It's rather like the Clarity Act: are you going to ask an honest question or a dishonest question? The question that this act is really putting before this committee is do you approve nuclear power? Any vote for this bill will be taken as an approval of nuclear power. But they don't want to ask the question to you straight out; they want to ask it to you in an indirect way.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

Fair enough.

All right, let's deal with that then: should the country approve of nuclear power?

Not so much during this fall session, but earlier on, we've had some compelling presentations from representatives of the wind energy sector and the solar energy sector. My understanding of their presentations to us is that whatever we do, however aggressively we move toward more reliance on wind and solar, the reality is that we are some years away from significant reliance on wind and solar. That's probably the unhappy reality.

Bearing in mind that we have energy needs—clearly, we have large energy needs in Canada—we're not going to eliminate reliance on nuclear any time in the next year or two. As I understand it, it's here and it's with us, and we're not going to soon get rid of it. Bearing that reality in mind, and bearing also the reality in mind that it's been....

Has a nuclear accident occurred within Canada?

9:25 a.m.

President, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility

Gordon Edwards

Yes, nuclear accidents have occurred at Chalk River. There was one in 1952 in which the reactor blew its lid off. The core of the reactor had to be buried off-site. Fortunately, it was a very tiny reactor. It was the NRX reactor. There was also a smaller accident in 1958 involving the NRU reactor.

There have been accidents in Canada, not involving commercial power reactors on a major scale, but we've had some pretty close calls. In fact, we've had a close call, if you remember, with the accident that shut down the Pickering unit 2 reactor as a result of a pressure tube breaking in the core of the reactor—something that the engineers and scientists had promised officials could never happen.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON

My final question is for Dr. Duguay.

My interpretation of your presentation is that we would do better as a committee, in order to protect the citizens of this country, if the legislation were to prohibit the retubing contracts. You were talking about reactors and saying the old reactors are not necessarily replaced with new, better, safer technology, but are retubed or refitted.

Is that a fair interpretation?

9:25 a.m.

Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Prof. Michel Duguay

Wow, that would be just wonderful if you could do that. That would be just wonderful.

If you read the AECL documentation, you become convinced that the new reactor designs are so much better. Everybody in the international nuclear physics community says the same thing. The old CANDU goes back to 1970.

You know, in Three Rivers and Bécancour, we have this reactor called Gentilly 2. Gentilly 1 was built as a showcase. It was so unstable that it never delivered a single kilowatt-hour to the network of Hydro-Québec. It is shut down. It is like a museum right now. That's how immature the CANDU technology was in the 1970s.

May I add another comment?

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Go ahead, please, yes.

9:25 a.m.

Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Prof. Michel Duguay

About the expansion of nuclear power, the 2006 latest AECL report is very proud to say that since 1990, AECL has contracted for seven CANDU reactors for international customers, more than any other power reactor vendor in the world. So since 1990, seven reactors amounting to something like five or six gigawatts...well, there's three times as much wind power being added every year right now.

So nuclear energy has hit a plateau internationally and what is expanding tremendously is wind and solar, and we have it in Canada.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Duguay.

Mr. Alghabra wants to have a question or two as well. Go ahead.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To Dr. Duguay, I appreciate your comments about the new technology versus the old technology. I'm curious, though, as far as the bill that is in front of us, dealing with the liability issue and the insurance issue, do you have any specific comments on the bill itself, as it stands, regardless of the nuclear technology that producers are using?

9:25 a.m.

Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Prof. Michel Duguay

As I said, there's a lot of talk in the AECL documentation about being in harmony with the United States. Well, in the United States they're talking about a $9 billion limit on liability. That's a little more serious.

One point that I make in the resumé that I passed around is the fact that people in this country ought to be aware that nuclear power is expensive and does carry with it a great danger. Your Bill C-5 could recognize that officially.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Alghabra, your time is up.

We go now to the Bloc Québécois, Monsieur Ouellet.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My first question deals with the fuel waste that is stored outside the reactor enclosure and which is presently kept in a pool, unless I am mistaken.

Do you consider this waste to be dangerous? Could it be used for an act of sabotage or terrorism? Is it well protected and out of harm's way?

9:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility

Gordon Edwards

Yes, this is in fact very much of a concern. About the swimming pool, or piscine, containing the irradiated fuel, it contains not one year's worth of irradiated fuel but ten years' worth of irradiated fuel, sometimes more. This would be a terrible accident if there were to be damage where the water was drained from the pool and possibly fires would occur. Zirconium, which is the metal that is used for cladding the fire, is very combustible and burns with a very intense heat, so you could have a serious zirconium fire in the pool if there were an accident or an act of sabotage that drained the water from the pool. It would simply heat up spontaneously.

So yes, that's a very serious concern and it has been flagged in the United States as a matter of national priority, because these piscines, these swimming pools, are not shielded. They're not under the dome of the reactor, and they're not shielded in a heavily reinforced way. They are much more vulnerable. Of course, that would apply to the Nuclear Liability Act. The act has to take that into consideration as well.

My main concern here is that if we're going to limit the liability of the operators of the reactor, why do we not also act to limit the liability of the population and of the crown?

9:30 a.m.

Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Prof. Michel Duguay

Can I reply to your question?

You know, Bécancour is right on the St. Lawrence River, which is a maritime seaway. If you look at what terrorists are doing around the world, they're in the habit lately of filling boats with explosives, exploding them, and destroying a whole lot of property around them.

Gentilly is extremely vulnerable to such an act. When there was an explosion in Halifax in 1917, the so-called Halifax explosion, everything within a radius of 2 kilometres was totally destroyed in Halifax. In Gentilly, you're talking about it being a few hundred metres from the river; it's right on the river. So a small boat filled with explosives could cause tremendous damage. Then there's ten times more radioactive waste outside in this pool, which has a very ordinary ceiling.

The National Academy of Science in the United States has issued a report with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, with the backing of industry, saying that the worst target that could be hit in the U.S. right now would be the swimming pools holding radioactive waste from nuclear reactors. These are the most vulnerable, the most dangerous spots, in the U.S.—which, of course, applies to Canada as well.

9:30 a.m.

Bloc

Christian Ouellet Bloc Brome—Missisquoi, QC

Is there water circulating in these pools?

9:30 a.m.

President, Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility

Gordon Edwards

Indeed, water needs to be circulated slowly in these pools in order to cool the spent fuel. Without cooling, the fuel would heat up and be damaged.

9:30 a.m.

Professor, Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Université Laval

Prof. Michel Duguay

May I add something to this?

Well, water is cheap; it's easy to build a swimming pool. But hell, if just an airplane falls on it, with benzene and everything else leading to a big fire, such as at the World Trade Center in 2001, the water goes away, the radioactive waste burns spontaneously, and you're dumping thousands or millions of curies into the air.

This would totally devastate the St. Lawrence River.

What do you think the Bloc Québécois people would do?