Natural Resources Committee on June 2nd, 2009

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

I see no reason why I would not want to come back, if the committee wanted me to attend and answer questions members may have as we move along.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

Madam Minister, I cannot but compare your comments today--and it's a bit self-congratulatory in terms of what you've been doing--with what we heard on June 5 of last year from Minister Lunn, who was then Minister of Natural Resources, the minister then responsible for this file in your government, who said, “Canadians can be assured that they will have an adequate supply of isotopes.”

Clearly, what he said was not accurate. How does that compare with what you've told us today? In fact, we've heard about this five-point plan that supposedly was in place, but now, a week and a half after the shutdown, we see a dwindling supply of isotopes, patients are not getting the tests they need, and we have to ask what has this so-called plan accomplished?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Regan.

In June of last year, where we would have been in terms of chronology is that AECL had taken a decision to discontinue the MAPLE reactor project. The government accepted that decision of AECL.

The important part of the MAPLE project, as you are very well aware, is that that was the solution for Canadian medical isotopes. MAPLE 1 and 2 had been under development for many years, and in fact were supposed to be commissioned in 2000. But it didn't happen then, and then it moved on to 2003, and indeed in 2008 the decision was taken that after 12 years and hundreds of millions of dollars and no isotopes produced, it was time to discontinue the project. Indeed, that is what happened.

At the same time, AECL also indicated that it would pursue the extension of the licence for the NRU. There was no reason at that time to believe there would be no ability for the NRU to continue to produce medical isotopes. It had done so on a very reliable basis for many years. Indeed, it's important to note that the shutdown in September of 2007 was a regular maintenance shutdown, but the problem with that shutdown was the fact that CNSC and AECL disagreed as to whether or not the reactor could be restarted. That's why the government ended up introducing emergency legislation, and all the parties passed it.

From that time forward, a couple of things happened. The department, AECL, and CNSC, after the miscommunication with the community and the situation we faced in December of 2007, commissioned a report by Talisman. Talisman set out a number of recommendations, which were all implemented by the departments in terms of communicating with the medical community as to when there would be a medical isotope shortage, and those protocols and those contingency plans were being worked on.

In December of last year we set out our five-point plan, as noted in my opening remarks, indicating that we were focusing on the global situation and predominantly recognizing the fact that the NRU, as we all know, produced 60% of the world's isotopes for a period of time in the fall, when the Petten reactor was down. It was that global isotope chain that we were focusing on, and that's why Canada actually moved forward to ask that the world take a look at this on a larger stage.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you.

Minister, you said today that the duration of the outage will not be known until the investigations are completed and repair options are identified. Now, we've been hearing that same line for quite a while, and I would think that surely you have been asking AECL when these investigations will be completed, because we keep hearing that same thing. We want to know how long this is going to be down, and we keep hearing at least three months. There are some who've suggested it will be a lot longer. When are the investigations going to be completed?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

We absolutely asked that question of AECL. It's incredibly important that AECL focus on the inspection of its reactor vessel and also focus on the options associated with the repair of it. As indicated earlier today, I think, they've updated the community in terms of how they're moving forward on furthering the inspection, and I would expect they're focusing on it.

We ask all the time in terms of how fast they are working, but they have to do it within their culture of safety and they have to do it in concert with the CNSC, the regulator who is there, and make sure that the health and safety of workers and the environment and the people around the area are protected as well. I believe them when they tell us they are working as diligently as they can in order to get to the end result. I don't think it's lost on anybody how important it is for AECL to do their inspection and to make their recommendations on repairs as quickly as possible. This is a very concerning issue.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

If the government was planning for this for so long, as you suggest, why do we see such a flurry of activity with new things happening, such as, for example, this announcement about appointing a panel? Why would you not have appointed that panel, if you were planning for this, months and months ago? Why wouldn't the government have appointed that panel last year?

Secondly, when are you going to name the panel?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

In December, we indicated that we were going to be looking at different types of medical isotope production, and we have received a number of proposals since then. It was a matter of bringing it together. As well, it should be pointed out that we were also engaged in the review of AECL and the restructuring plans, and those two pieces were coming together.

In terms of when we'll be announcing the expert panel, it is our hope that we will have all proposals in by July 31 of this year, in order for the panel to assess them. So we'll be looking to appoint a panel as soon as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Regan. Your time is up.

We go now to the Bloc Québécois, to Madame Brunelle, for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Good afternoon, minister.

You said something in your presentation that concerns me. You said that, the last time, in 2007, there were no good reasons to keep the reactor out of service. You went on to say that we are now victims of a major technical problem that has to be fixed.

Are you thinking of shutting the reactor down for good and not telling us about it?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

The process we're in right now is that the reactor vessel is being inspected by AECL to determine the damage, the location of the leak, and the best way to do the repairs. That's the information we have from them at this point. It is impossible for me to say how long it will take to repair it or what the decisions of AECL will be concerning what options to choose in making the repairs.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What I see at the moment is skilful crisis management. You tell us that you have learned a lot since 2007. You provide information, you have a communication plan, the medical community has to get itself organized so that it can operate without isotopes, and so on. But you are surely well aware that none of that produces a single isotope, helps a single patient or allows a single test to be conducted. You have known that the NRU reactor has had serious problems for 18 months and that we were heading towards an isotope crisis.

Why have you been so slow to react? When we are asking you about solutions that will get us isotopes, you tell us that you are going to privatize AECL. Is that because you do not know what to do?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Concerning some of the statements made, first of all, it was not known that the NRU was not functionable; in fact, quite the opposite was the case. This government was looking at extending its licence, because of the fact that the NRU was working. Indeed, over the fall the NRU produced 60% of the world's isotopes; it worked very well. It is a reality that this is one of the oldest reactors in the world and that it will encounter technical difficulties, and we have one right now.

So to indicate that we knew there was going to be a medical isotope shortage is simply not the case.

With respect to what we have done and what we have learned, out of December 2007 the fragility of the global isotope chain has been revealed. It was important for us as Canadians to connect with the rest of the isotope-producing and isotope-consuming countries, and that's what we have done. We now chair the high-level working group on dealing with the supply chain.

But for the fact that we had developed those relationships, we would not have achieved the very quick results in two weeks of having Petten be able to ramp up their production, having Belgium be able to indicate that they can add to their capacity, and also having SAFARI indicate that they can ramp up as well. It is a direct result of the action that was taken by this government that we were able to address this situation as quickly as we did.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Minister, you told us yesterday that you were going to be part of a conference call this morning with representatives of other countries that produce isotopes. Did you come up with concrete, tangible solutions to deal with the shortage?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

As I mentioned, we received reports back from the other countries indicating how they'd be able to ramp up production to supply to the world.

The other side of it, too, that we discussed, which is equally important, is to be able to better equip the medical community to understand how much isotope will be available at any given time. There is a lack of information flowing, and we need to have our medical practitioners with as much information as possible so they can manage on the ground. So that discussion happened as well. We need the commitment by the isotope-producing countries to indeed make sure that information is shared and is pushed through the system, from the reactor to the processor to the generator, and indeed out to the rest of the medical community. As I mentioned as well, there's the commitment needed from the other countries to increase the production of their medical isotopes. Finally, there is the need for discussions about maintenance schedules with respect to currently operating reactors.

I think those are the three take-aways from this morning, and I think it was a very good meeting. Indeed, there will be follow-up meetings in the coming days from the broader companies associated with isotopes, isotope production, and isotope generation.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Can we say, as MDS Nordion claims, that it is possible to start up the MAPLE program again? It also seems that you have abandoned the idea of restarting the MAPLE program.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Yes, thank you very much.

As I indicated, the MAPLEs, as designed, did not produce a single medical isotope and simply didn't work. AECL took the decision to discontinue them, and we accepted that decision.

However, there have been indications from MDS Nordion that, in their opinion, they can be restarted. We look forward to receiving all proposals, as I indicated in my notes about using facilities and not using existing facilities. But it is a fact that the MAPLEs, as currently designed, do not work. I dearly don't want people to think you can flip a switch and have medical isotopes produced from those reactors, because it simply cannot happen.

MDS Nordion may have a point of view that may be associated with the position they're trying to assert, but it is not the fact and reality of the situation. If it were that simple, Madam, we would have addressed that matter very quickly and not been in the situation we're in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

You have 30 seconds.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I cannot can say much in 30 seconds. Let me just say that we are looking for action, very quick action, from the government. Our doctors and their patients are demanding it from us. We cannot just conduct an exercise in communication and crisis management. We need concrete solutions. You are going to have to make really specific announcements so that the medical community can continue to function.

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Madame Brunelle.

We go now to the New Democratic Party, and Mr. Cullen, for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

In 2007, I recall various ministers of your government—and the Prime Minister, amongst others—scream there was a life and death crisis taking place in terms of medical isotopes. The Parliament at the time believed the government and allowed for the re-opening of the Chalk River facility, the same one we've been talking about today, over the concerns of the regulator and the chief person, Linda Keen, responsible for the safety of Canadians. I guess I'm trying to understand. In 2007, the other world reactors were up and running; now we have none of those reactors up and running, and the government won't use the term “life and death situation”.

You were asked this question a little while ago. I was there and I remember that you didn't answer it. I am wondering if I could put the question to you again: do you believe this is a life and death situation?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Thank you.

One thing I do want to point out, Mr. Cullen, is that you indicated there are no reactors up and running today. I think you received a presentation earlier from the ADM indicating there are reactors currently operating. In fact, that's why medical isotopes are being produced. So I just want to make sure we understand that record.

I, and we, are very concerned about the situation, and that's why our officials are engaging worldwide with their colleagues on medical isotope production, and that's why the Minister of Health is working to help on this side in terms of the shortage of supply. Health and safety, of course, are of the utmost concern for any government, and especially in this case. And the reality—

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I'm not going to get a life and death answer out of you here.

The NRU was functional, and you said earlier in your responses that you didn't know it was going to go down in advance, obviously. You seem surprised that the Chalk River facility ran into this difficulty. By that I mean it worked well until it didn't.

Your government has stepped in with a proposal of alternatives. In fact, our research has shown that not all of the treatments that moly-99 is able to perform for Canadians, especially cancer patients, actually have viable alternatives that are anywhere near to being as high in quality. I'm sure you're aware that I've had folks in my family diagnosed with cancer, and early and accurate detection was absolutely critical, which is what these isotopes produced at Chalk River were meant to supply. The substitution of lesser-quality procedures should be of grave concern.

I have no idea why you won't simply call it what you did in 2007 in terms of a life and death situation, with the vast majority of reactors in the world not up and running and producing isotopes. You've talked about workshops, studies, committees, and expert panels. I want you to offer today to Canadians a guarantee that those waiting for the detection of cancer will have the supply at their hospital.

Can you do that?

[Lisa Raitt, Conservative, Halton, ON]

Mr. Cullen, as we indicated earlier, there is going to be a shortage of supply of medical isotopes. You can't promise something that you simply don't have. The reality is that we are working all the levers that we possibly have, from our worldwide contacts to working with medical practitioners, both to increase the global supply and to manage the supply that we do have.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Does the government--