Evidence of meeting #30 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reactor.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ivanco  Vice-President, Society of Professional Engineers and Associates
Robert Atcher  Past President, International Society of Nuclear Medicine
Sandy McEwan  Special Advisor on Medical Isotopes to the Minister of Health, As an Individual
Hugh MacDiarmid  President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Bill Pilkington  Senior Vice-President and Chief Nuclear Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited
Serge Dupont  Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources
Tom Wallace  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources
David Caplan  Minister of Health and Long-Term Care, Government of Ontario

4 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

I want to follow up on the MAPLE issue again. You've had folks come in from around the world--from Brooks, the Idaho National Laboratory, and an Argentinian company--to try to solve this problem, and they were not able to do that. An expert panel is being appointed. What do you perceive that they could bring to the table that these folks haven't already brought?

Second, when did the problems become evident in the MAPLE reactor? I understand it was in 2001, and two people were well aware then that there were significant problems. Is that true?

4 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Atomic Energy of Canada Limited

Hugh MacDiarmid

The emergence of the licensing issues with the MAPLE occurred early in this decade--around 2001 or 2002.

On the expert panel, it's an eminent group of individuals. They will undoubtedly want to ask good questions and undertake whatever kinds of reviews they feel are appropriate to come to a determination. That's a healthy process that will bring many possibilities to the surface.

We expect that the decisions and actions we've taken will be subject to some scrutiny as part of that process. We're prepared to deal with that, because we believe we've made decisions that will stand up to that test.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much, Mr. MacDiarmid and Mr. Pilkington, for coming to give us this information. It has been very helpful to us indeed.

We will change witnesses now, so I'll suspend the meeting for a few minutes.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

We'll resume our meeting now with the next panel. First is Serge Dupont, Deputy Minister (Intergovernmental Affairs), Privy Council Office, and special adviser to the Minister of Natural Resources on nuclear energy policy.

Welcome.

Tom Wallace is director general, electricity resources branch, Natural Resources Canada.

Thank you very much, Mr. Wallace, for being here.

Do either of you gentlemen have opening statements?

4:05 p.m.

Serge Dupont Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Last time I was given a little more time than usual. With your permission, I won't do the same thing; I'll try to be brief instead. We sent the committee some notes for a statement from which I am simply going to go over certain points.

First of all, on the basis of what you've heard for a number of weeks and months, we all acknowledge the impact of an extended outage of the NRU on Canadians and Canada's health system. It's a serious problem and the health and safety of Canadians are still the government's top priority.

You have heard from the representatives of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited about their efforts to bring the reactor back into service reliably as quickly as possible. In addition, the president and CEO of Atomic Energy of Canada has already mentioned that the minister has clearly said the safe and reliable return to service of the NRU is AECL's top priority. He also said that the minister was trying to ensure that the corporation made every effort to achieve that objective.

Today I'm going to talk about the efforts being made under the leadership of the minister of Natural Resources to improve the security of supply in the short, medium and long terms.

When I last had the honour of appearing before the committee, I outlined the fragility and complexity of the global supply chain and spoke of Canada's role in mobilizing major producing and consumer countries toward enhanced security of supply.

On January 28 and 29, 2009, at Canada's instigation, an international workshop was convened in Paris under the auspices of the Nuclear Energy Agency. Eighty-five participants from 16 countries participated, including representatives from governments, industry, regulators, and the medical community.

A consensus was reached on the need to improve the coordination of reactor schedules, increase transparency, improve the efficiency of the distribution system, and provide timely notification of available supplies to the medical community. This was on the basis that the security of isotope supply is a global problem requiring a global solution.

Following this workshop, the steering committee of the NEA agreed in April 2009 to establish a high-level group to carry the international agenda forward. It includes representatives of all of the countries that own the five aging reactors producing the bulk of the world's medical isotopes--Canada, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, and South Africa--along with Japan, the United States, and Australia, which is an emerging producer. Canada chairs the high-level group. Australia is vice-chair.

I note that all of these steps were undertaken before the unplanned NRU outage. Our message was simple: collectively, we rely on aging reactors and a fragile supply chain. There is a collective responsibility to bring forward additional sources of supply and manage available supplies responsibly, particularly in periods of shortage.

From our perspective, these efforts and relationships have paid off. Less than two days after AECL announced a prolonged and unplanned outage in May, we convened our global partners by conference call, and the minister addressed the group to encourage a supply response. Contacts have been maintained since then through conference calls and a first face-to-face meeting of the high-level group in Toronto on June 17 and 18.

When the Petten reactor of the Netherlands underwent an extended outage, from August 2008 to February 2009, Canada increased its supplies from the NRU. Our international partners therefore did the same. Since May, the Petten reactor has stepped up production by 50% and the South African reactor by 20%. Processing capacity was expanded in Belgium to accommodate larger volumes of irradiation by nuclear reactors. Australia intensified efforts to bring its OPAL reactor on stream. We noticed, when the Petten reactor went down for one month near the end of July, that the Belgium reactor went into production and helped reduce global shortages. The Petten reactor has now been brought successfully back into service, which will be very useful as we head into the fall.

That said, the situation will remain fragile and potentially volatile, and our medical community will have to be disciplined and vigilant at all times to ensure the best possible use of available supplies. We of course hail all the efforts that have been made in that direction.

We're also looking beyond the immediate or short term. We're engaged in discussions with the United States government, the Oak Ridge and Idaho National Laboratories, and the Universities of McMaster and Missouri on the possibilities of putting in place back-up arrangements to augment supplies when the NRU has to be down for periodic maintenance, as would be the case under a program of life extension.

Three technical meetings, co-chaired by NRCan and the U.S. Department of Energy, have been held since June to develop options for replacing part of the NRU supply, beginning as early as September 2010. Significant work is needed to complete the requisite analysis and safety cases. We've been impressed to date by the level of commitment shown by the U.S. administration in these efforts, facilitated by positive exchanges initiated by our minister.

I would add that jurisdictions around the world are reviewing options and supply scenarios. The U.S., which is by far the largest global consumer, is determined to develop domestic supply capacity. The Europeans and Asians, likewise, are assessing new and alternative sources of supply. This is a welcome development, because a reliable, resilient global supply chain cannot be overly dependent on any one source, whether Canadian or other. The U.S. and other global partners recognize that the supply of isotope—a radioactive product that cannot be stored and must be distributed in real time, as we discussed last time—must be more diversified and more distributed geographically.

Canada too must review its options and how our needs in the medical system may be met over the medium to long term. To this end, the Minister of Natural Resources appointed the expert panel you have already heard about. I would simply mention the names of the four eminently qualified individuals serving on this panel—Peter Goodhand, Richard Drouin, Dr. Thom Mason, and Dr. Eric Tourcotte—who have agreed to prepare a report for the minister by November 30.

As you have heard, 22 expressions of interest have been received and are being reviewed by the panel. These proposals deserve careful consideration. The decisions to be taken in regard to future supply will shape our marketplace and how we serve our needs for the next 20 years or more. There is a range of factors to consider, including determining carefully the role of the public sector in achieving the necessary security of supply for Canadians and commercial interests in bringing forward supply capacity.

The panel is being supported by a secretariat staffed with officials from Natural Resources Canada and Health Canada.

While some of the proponents have chosen to publicize their proposals, I would note that others have explicitly asked that the submissions remain commercially confidential with the panel. The panel and secretariat have respected these requests.

Mr. Chairman, we are making every effort to minimize the impact of the current disruption in the global supply of medical isotopes on Canadians. We have taken measures consistent with our means to improve the collaboration and coordination between international partners and reactor operators. We have worked domestically and internationally to find alternatives to the supply of isotopes.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to any questions the committee may have.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you very much.

We'll now go directly to questions, starting with the official opposition.

For up to seven minutes, Mr. Tonks.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Thank you. I'm sure I'll share part of that time with my colleague, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses.

The first question I have--and I'm sure the committee would be interested in the response--is from purely a philosophical and professional perspective. Whose responsibility do you believe it is to produce pharma-medical isotopes for the needs of Canadians?

4:15 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

It's a fair question.

I think what we have at the current time is a dependence of the overall global market, including Canadians, on five aging reactors. The last time I was here, I described that there is also in fact some reliance in that process on what we call technetium generators in the United States.

I think one of the first questions the panel focused on, in the first discussion I had with them when I went to brief them on the matter, is what is the proper role of the government here versus what may be the proper commercial interests? The proper role of the government is to see that the needs of Canadians are met. There may be different ways and different technologies and different commercial arrangements whereby this might occur. It is early in the process to establish exactly what this may be. But I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it is the role of the government and it is now the role of the panel to advise on how to achieve this goal.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I take from that, then, that it would be a responsible position for the department to take in advising the expert panel that the health of Canadians, both medical and economic, is a very high priority and that there is a total absence of bias with respect to the panel review in coming forward with its recommendations. Would that be correct?

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

The terms of reference for the panel have been structured such that the principal focus is to meet the needs of Canadians in regard to medical imaging and therefore the supply of technetium to Canada, asking them as well to look at different criteria in that regard, one of those criteria being other benefits to Canadians, including the economic benefits that may flow from different ventures.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Okay, but expert advice has been given today that there have been shortcomings with respect to the other technologies when there is an interface with a medical prognosis. So there is no single solution, but there is the strategic combination of solutions, one of which is the role that NRU has played in terms of producing medical isotopes, the goal of which was for the MAPLE reactors to produce medical isotopes that were of a generic and universal application.

My concern, and I wonder if it would be your concern, is that if you listen to Mr. MacDiarmid, who was here just previously, there is no absence of bias with respect to Atomic Energy of Canada. They have completely taken off the table, for example, the possibility of reactivating the MAPLE reactors. If there is that kind of disposition, what kind of credibility can the Canadian people have in the strategy that you've also indicated, about the fast-tracking of the McMaster capabilities and its reactor? And I think UBC similarly has a capability. What trust can Canadians have that the expert panel's decisions will be listened to if it should come out and say, “Here are the strategic parts, and it is in the Canadian interest, medical and economic, for these recommendations to be accepted”?

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

First, I would make very clear that the panel will be reporting to the minister, not to AECL. So I think the minister is certainly looking to get their best advice, and I don't think the minister is starting from any presupposition about what may be the best alternative.

That said, in 2008 the government had to make a very hard decision, based on the evidence presented to it at the time about the MAPLEs, and face the situation where there were considerable further costs to be incurred, considerable uncertainty, and timelines that made it no longer attractive to pursue that option. If the panel comes back and suggests that on the basis of evidence presented to it, this is worth another look, I'm sure the minister will be looking at that.

As regards the other technologies, I should make two points of clarification. The minister has not explicitly asked the panel to advise on MAPLEs. The minister has asked the panel to look at the proposals submitted to it, and we expect—and there is, obviously—some proposal related to the MAPLEs. There is, therefore, an expectation that the panel will take that under advisement.

Second, you mentioned other technologies, and in terms of what we heard from the medical authority earlier, I want to make a distinction. I was talking about different technologies to produce technetium, which could be done through accelerators, cyclotrons, or another research reactor, so not the alternatives to technetium for medical purposes.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

I appreciate that clarification, and I'm sure the committee does.

Finally—and I'm sure the committee would like to have a comfort level—in view of the very professional overview you've given with respect to the role of the panel, the adjudication with backup support from departmental and ministry staff, why would the committee support contracting the evaluation out in the manner that has been entrenched in the proposal call? Why would we support that?

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

You're referring to the RFP that was issued for advice from an outside party.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Alan Tonks Liberal York South—Weston, ON

Yes, that's right.

4:20 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

We have the benefit of having four eminently qualified individuals. I think it is fair for them to have the benefit of some review, some scanning of these proposals, and some analysis being performed so that they are not simply presented with a stack of 22 proposals: “Here, we know you'll work really hard, and we're looking forward to your advice.” This is allowing an entity to come in with professional expertise.

We actually had set out, even in the terms of reference when we first announced the panel, that there would be this kind of support to the panel so that they would be able to look at the different 22 proposals consistently across a set of criteria, with some input provided by an outside party.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Tonks.

We now go to the Bloc Québécois.

Madame Brunelle, you have up to seven minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you for being here.

Mr. Dupont, you talked about nuclear medicine physicians, thanked them and hailed their work. They are obviously on the front line and it is no doubt difficult to see waiting lists growing and patients not receiving their treatment.

However, they seem skeptical about you. The representatives of the Association of Nuclear Medicine told us that they are concerned about the successive delays in making repairs to the reactor and about the devastating—and apparently irresolvable—effect that the medical isotope shortage is having on the health of Canadians.

The committee has heard from you on a number of occasions. Since your last visit, what has your department really done to resolve this crisis? Please reassure us.

4:25 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

First of all, I would like to emphasize that there is no discrepancy between the physicians' statement and the basic position of the Government of Canada. The government itself is concerned at all levels. There is of course some frustration that there has not been a solution that can be implemented in one day. That's the reality, and it has set in over a number of years. The reactors are of a certain age. I believe the comments on the repairs to the reactor show that this is an extremely technical, highly complex field in which every project will take time and will be very costly.

I've tried to outline in part what we're doing. The idea is first to see what capacity is available internationally and where we can get additional capacity. Some has already come on stream in the Netherlands and South Africa. Of course, we can't completely replace the production of the Chalk River reactor. We won't be able to do that overnight. It will take a few months or even years more before we have a framework enabling us to completely replace the Chalk River production. You're feeling frustrated, as are the government and the physicians. That's the fact of the matter. There is no solution that we can implement immediately.

4:25 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

I'm particularly concerned by the fact that we are unclear on the matter. You're telling us today that a panel has been responsible for examining the solutions for many months now. There are 22 proposals on the table, but you can't tell us about them. Give us some possible options. What are we to tell people, that the government has been negligent, that the government has been sitting on its hands all summer or that the government has taken the opportunity to do nothing while the media radar screen was not switched on?

We parliamentarians have to answer to our electorate. Personally, in my office, I receive people who are in tears, who can't get the necessary care; it's not true that there are so many alternatives. I must have answers. I want to be able to be confident that the department will intervene and that it is able to do something for patients.

4:25 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

Mr. Chairman, I understand that the Canadian public is entitled to expect answers. Everything is being done so that solutions can be introduced as soon as possible. First of all, the first solution is to restart this reactor as soon as possible. No effort has been spared to that end.

Second, we have to mobilize existing international capacity as much as possible. We are able to identify certain increases in capacity by our international partners. We're going to continue working with them so that that continues.

Lastly, you have to consider the medium and long terms. An expert panel is currently working and will be making recommendations. There are various proposals, but I can't give you any details on some of them. Obviously, some are known to the public, whether it be McMaster University, the TRIUMF lab or others. We'll be assessing those proposals as best we can and, of course, we will see that Canadians' needs are best served as soon as possible.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

This committee has had discussions with the people from McMaster University and the TRIUMF laboratory. They seem to be able to provide solutions quite quickly. I'm surprised you haven't been able to intervene sooner and tell us that matters have evolved. We have to wait until November for the panel's report to be tabled. I admit I'm very disappointed. The matter will be in the government's hands at that time. How many months will it take? We're going to meet again in two years and we'll be asking you the same questions.

4:30 p.m.

Special Advisor to the Minister of Natural Resources on Nuclear Energy Policy , Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

There is clearly a problem at this time and any process that must take a certain amount of time will be a very legitimate cause of impatience.

That said, whether we're talking about the TRIUMF lab, MAPLE reactors, McMaster University or other proposals that are on the table, all these options would require considerable amounts of money from the government, a significant commitment and the mobilization of major resources. Choices have to be made. Those choices, as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, will have an impact for the next 20, 30 and 40 years. It is well understood that there are very serious short-term imperatives. At the same time, the decision will have a significant impact. A simultaneous assessment must be conducted of all those proposals on the same basis. It nevertheless takes time to do that job properly and professionally, and we're doing it as quickly as possible.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Do I have any more time, Mr. Chairman?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Actually, your time is up. You had about 10 seconds, but I've managed to use that for you--