Evidence of meeting #34 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was reactors.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Serge Dupont  Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources
Tom Wallace  Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Jean-Luc Bourdages  Committee Researcher

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Good afternoon, members of the committee and invited witnesses.

This is the 34th meeting of the Standing Committee on Natural Resources. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are engaged in a study on the state of the nuclear industry in Canada and abroad.

We welcome Serge Dupont, special adviser to the Minister of Natural Resources on nuclear energy policy. We also have with us Tom Wallace, director general of the electricity resources branch at the Department of Natural Resources.

Welcome to both of you and thank you.

You know what the proceedings are, so there's no point in going over that.

Mr. Dupont, you were going to make an introductory statement. Please go right ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Serge Dupont Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to outline the government's perspective and agenda in respect of the Canadian nuclear industry. My intervention will be brief and organized along the following key messages.

First, there is an important role for the nuclear industry in meeting energy and environmental needs in Canada and abroad. Moreover, Canada's industry has the track record, the resources, the know-how and the technology to participate in this global market.

Second, the Government of Canada has a critical role in establishing the conditions for the safe, secure and environmentally sound development of this industry in Canada and is ensuring that its regulatory framework fosters such conditions.

Third, the investment and sharing of risks in individual projects and technologies must be founded on merits and developed under solid business cases. Where there is scope to do so, the private sector can bring key resources—risk capital and entrepreneurship—to support the development of the sector on a competitive basis.

Fourth, the restructuring of Atomic Energy of Canada is a key, necessary step toward strengthening Canada's nuclear industry and putting it in a better position to access opportunities at home and abroad.

I would hope that members will find this overview helpful as a backdrop to your meetings and I would of course be pleased to take questions after the presentation.

Briefly again on the role of nuclear energy in Canada and the world, obviously it's a very important industry to Canada and we have a track record to demonstrate this. Our presence in this industry spans uranium mining and refining, fuel fabrication, the generation of nuclear power, the production of medical isotopes, the management of nuclear waste, and research and development. Our industry has developed this presence successfully in Canada and in the export markets.

We are the world's largest uranium producer. It all comes from Saskatchewan at the present time, but there are other promising resources in other parts of the country, notably Nunavut. Our high-grade reserves are the richest in the world--by far.

Nuclear energy provides about 15% of Canada's electricity and 50% in Ontario.

There are nine CANDU 6 reactors operating safely and successfully in Argentina, Korea, China, and Romania. They represent a showcase of Canada as a high-technology country. In fact, there are 48 reactors based on CANDU technology in the world today.

Countries around the world are continuing to look to nuclear as a key source of clean energy for the future. This was reinforced last week at the International Energy Agency meetings, which the Minister of Natural Resources attended. Leaders from around the world restated that without a significant increase in nuclear power, the world will be unable to meet its greenhouse gas reduction targets.

In short, the nuclear industry is an important one for Canada and reflects over 60 years of Canadian leadership in nuclear industries.

Approximately 30,000 people are directly or indirectly employed in this industry and many of them are highly skilled and highly paid.

The annual output of the industry is approximately $6 billion.

It's important to mention as well that nuclear energy in Canada displaces between 40 million and 80 million tonnes of GHG annually relative to producing the same quantity of electricity from gas or coal.

I will now talk about the Government of Canada's role in the nuclear sector.

Of course, decisions respecting uranium mining and exploration and investments in power generation rest with the provinces.

The federal government, however, plays a very important role and has broader responsibilities in terms of nuclear energy, much more so than for other energy sources. The federal government is responsible for the broad policy framework, including policies respecting waste management and exports of nuclear materials and technology. To that end, Canada has put in place a strong and modern legislative framework, which includes the Nuclear Safety and Control Act, the Nuclear Fuel Waste Act and the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act.

And, as you are aware, the government has introduced Bill C-20 to modernize the 1975 Nuclear Liability Act. I understand that the committee plans to continue its review of this bill this fall.

Through the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, the federal government regulates all nuclear activities to ensure health, safety, security and environmental protection.

In addition, the government is taking action to remediate waste issues that date back over several decades. I could go over some examples later, but we'll move on in the interest of time.

On the role in the industry of business cases and business merits, including the private sector, nuclear energy is a technology-intensive, capital-intensive, and risk-intensive business. As such, individual projects and investments, whether a mine, a processing plant, a new reactor, or a refurbishment of an existing reactor, will need to be based on a careful assessment of benefits, costs, and risks. Sound business cases will also be the foundation of a globally competitive industry. In this environment the private sector can make, and is making, an important contribution by providing risk capital, entrepreneurship, the pursuit of commercial opportunities, and the creation of jobs.

The Canadian industry includes private sector companies in uranium mining and processing as well as in the operation of nuclear reactors in Ontario. The supply industry also includes more than 150 Canadian firms supplying equipment and engineering services to this industry.

Fifth, in this context the Government of Canada is moving forward with the restructuring of AECL, as announced by the Minister of Natural Resources on May 28.

The restructuring is guided by the following three key objectives: meeting Canada's energy and environmental needs economically, safely, and reliably; maximizing the return on Canada's substantial investment in nuclear energy over the years; and positioning our nuclear energy for growth in domestic and global markets at a time when this industry, worldwide, is expanding.

As you are aware, the initiative followed a study undertaken by Natural Resources Canada with the assistance of outside advisors. The summary report of the review was made public in May, at the same time as the minister's announcement. I have asked that it be distributed to the committee to help with its deliberations.

The review concluded that the current mandate and structure of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited hampers both its success and the development of the nuclear industry in Canada. The review found that the CANDU Reactor Division did not have the critical size to establish a strong presence in high-growth markets.

The structure and business model of Atomic Energy of Canada Limited need to change to provide more opportunities to partner and acquire global scale to leverage AECL's technology, skills, experience and capabilities.

The review also concluded that Chalk River laboratories would benefit from a strong partner to drive innovation and renewal, and that a government-owned, company-operated approach, such as prevails in the U.S. and the U.K. notably, should be considered. Under this model, which is the basis on which many nuclear labs around the world are managed, policy mandate and funding would rest with the government. The operation of facilities would be contracted to one or more third parties through a competitive process.

The government has engaged N M Rothschild & Sons Canada Limited, through a competitive process, to provide advice on the next stage of restructuring. The report from Rothschild will guide the next steps. The minister has also engaged David Leith, former deputy chairman of CIBC World Markets, to act as her adviser on restructuring. I would note that the board of AECL is also actively engaged in the restructuring process.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I hope I have been helpful in providing some context for the role that nuclear energy plays in Canada and in situating recent initiatives. I would be pleased to take questions from the committee.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you, Mr. Dupont.

Mr. Wallace, did you wish to add anything at this time?

3:45 p.m.

Tom Wallace Director General, Electricity Resources Branch, Department of Natural Resources

No, not at this time. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you.

We'll now go to our round of questioning.

Yes, Mr. Cullen?

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

I have a quick point of order.

Oftentimes we have the analysts prepare some sets of background information and potential lines of inquiry. Is that what these two documents are that are with us today?

My point is just out of curiosity, because these are just excerpts from a book, and the book is predominantly pro-nuclear. It's an unusual set of research points for the committee to work with and it's not been our standard before in the past.

I'm just curious, is there something forthcoming or is there a reason?

And I do this with caution, not to embarrass anybody. I just want to understand what it's about.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

I appreciate that, Mr. Cullen.

I'll just redirect that to our research team.

3:45 p.m.

Jean-Luc Bourdages Committee Researcher

Actually, this was basically a first briefing session on a broader issue. We just wanted to provide some general information that is coming from the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency, which has an overview of the state of nuclear energy in the world, basically in the major countries.

Also, there is a second document. It's part of a broader document. The second one is on the future of this industry.

It was just material to help out, basically.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

This is just more of a committee process thing. As we go ahead with the study of this, it might be beneficial to have something of greater breadth of inquiry and background. This is simply one point source. We didn't do that with any of the other investigations the committee has done, so....

3:45 p.m.

Committee Researcher

Jean-Luc Bourdages

No, that's right. We wanted to wait to have this first briefing to see where the committee was going with this at this point.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC

All right. I understand.

Thanks.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Your point is well taken. Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

We'll go now to our question period.

Mr. Regan.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

We thank the witnesses, Mr. Dupont and Mr. Wallace. It's nice to have you here.

I also want to note that Mr. Cullen's comments have highlighted, I think, how valuable this research work is to us here. It's an indication to them that we notice.

Thank you for your efforts, which we so often rely on.

Gentlemen, through you, Mr. Chairman, Minister Raitt indicated this summer that she was disappointed with AECL and its performance in relation to Chalk River. She more recently described AECL as a small Canadian crown corporation that cannot compete. Does this diminish the value of AECL?

We noted earlier this year, in January, when the government made its proposal to raise something like $10 billion through a sale of assets during a recession, that this might not be the best time to be selling assets at fire sale prices. It strikes me as odd that a minister who is thinking about selling or seeking private investment in a crown corporation would be making statements like this. Does it have any impact on the value of AECL at all?

3:45 p.m.

Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

As regards the NRU, obviously the minister and the Minister of Health, at the time, as well, were expressing disappointment with the timeline. I think that disappointment was shared by all Canadians who look to AECL to supply that very critical input to our health care system.

I think what is becoming increasingly clear is the amount of effort that AECL is putting into the resumption of the NRU under the guidance of the minister. There is much information on that from a number of sources, including the AECL website, which details quite extensively the amount of the effort.

On the comment with regard to the size of AECL, I would in fact observe, Mr. Chair, that the comment was made, not only by the minister but in fact by the department as well, in the summary report that we presented to the minister, as basically an empirical observation. If one compares AECL in size to AREVA, to Westinghouse, and to other suppliers of nuclear reactors in the world, it does not have the same scale and therefore does not have the same might to enter with the same capacities into markets like India and China, that are the growth markets for this industry worldwide.

If one looks at the minister's speeches, however, and our report more broadly, you will find very strong statements of confidence in the ability of the Canadian technology, in the ability of Canadian workers in AECL--its engineers and scientists--and that is where the value of AECL resides. The fact that AECL does not have the same size to compete with others is a well-known fact.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Yet isn't it true that there hasn't been a point at which AECL has not been building reactors around the world?

3:50 p.m.

Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

That there has not been a point?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Isn't that right? I believe we've heard that from AECL.

3:50 p.m.

Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

That is correct, Mr. Chair. In 2007, they finished construction of the last reactor. They're now in the pursuit of refurbishments. The markets, however, have been selective in terms of the jurisdictions involved, that is the parts of the world where AECL has been successful to date. I mentioned Romania, Korea, and one project in China. I think it's been clear over the last number of years that AECL has decided not to pursue the U.S. market and U.K. market, which were also important markets.

Actually, right now it has to be very adept at pursuing such other markets as India and, again, China, for the next rounds.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Is it accurate that around the world at the moment there are something like 125 requests for proposals from governments, and perhaps others as well, for nuclear power plants?

3:50 p.m.

Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

That is the right ballpark number, Mr. Chair. There are all kinds of numbers, depending on the timeframe one is looking at. I've seen 100 projects on the books to the year 2030. Other scenarios would have an even stronger growth over the next 30 to 40 years, but it's certainly in the range of 100 and up.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

You mentioned the timeline a moment ago when I asked about the comments of the minister being disappointed with AECL. Have you been able to identify any steps that AECL did not take or failed to take, or any errors in the steps it took since May, that would lead to the minister being disappointed with that crown corporation?

3:50 p.m.

Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

Well, again, the minister was disappointed with an outcome; I don't think the minister was pointing fingers or saying something had not been pursued diligently. Again, I think if you look at her words, she's disappointed with the outcome, disappointed with the timeline, and wants to ensure that AECL maintains this as a very, very clear focus, an overriding priority. I think that's been the case—and the work is continuing.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Well, I think it was certainly the interpretation of the media and I think much of the public that the intent of the Prime Minister and the minister was to shift the blame to AECL, with the words they were using at that time.

At any rate, let me ask you about the intellectual property that AECL has. What happens to the ownership of intellectual property that it has developed and continues to develop, if it's privatized as proposed?

3:50 p.m.

Special Advisor on Nuclear Energy Policy to the Minister of Natural Resources, Department of Natural Resources

Serge Dupont

That's a good question, because in large measure that's the value of the asset to Canadians and the value of the asset to our industry as well.

There are different arrangements whereby intellectual property can be negotiated in a transaction. We are not at a stage where the government has decided on the form of the transaction, the parameters of the transaction, and whether intellectual property is retained but licensed; or acquired and therefore purchased for its value; or acquired with some conditions in terms of ongoing remuneration to the originator of the intellectual property. The treatment of intellectual property will obviously be a very critical ingredient in any transaction.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

We're now going to go to Madame Brunelle.