Evidence of meeting #7 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was green.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Joanne McKenna  Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro
Douglas Stout  Vice-president, Marketing and Business Development, Terasen Gas
Mel Ydreos  Vice-President, Marketing, Union Gas Limited
Victoria Smith  Manager, Aboriginal and Sustainable Communities Sector, Key Account Management, B.C. Hydro

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon everyone. Thank you all for being here on time. It's very much appreciated.

We have two items on our agenda today. First is the main business of the meeting, which is a continuation of our study. From 5 o'clock to 5:30 we will deal with the future business of the committee, so we will break right at 5 o'clock to start that. For the first hour an a half we will, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), continue our study on the contribution of integrated approaches for providing energy services in Canadian communities.

As for our witnesses today, from B.C. Hydro we have Joanne McKenna, project manager, distributed generation strategy, customer care and conservation; and Victoria Smith, manager, aboriginal and sustainable communities sector, key account management. From Terasen Gas we have Douglas Stout, vice-president, marketing and business development. From Union Gas Limited we have Mel Ydreos, vice-president, operations.

Welcome, everyone.

We will start with each group giving a presentation of up to 10 minutes. If the clerk said less, then it's less. We have three presentation, so if you can keep them short that would be great.

We will start with Joanne McKenna from B.C. Hydro.

3:30 p.m.

Joanne McKenna Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro

Thank you.

First, I'd like to thank you all for inviting us here. We're very happy to come and talk to you about some of the great innovative programs and initiatives Hydro is working on that we believe support the sustainable municipalities program and initiative.

Three of the key take-aways I'd like you to take from this is that we have found that communities are starting to take a leadership role in matters relating to energy. They've become more interested, and I think what we're seeing is a rise in that. Customers want to be involved in energy decisions; they want to look at how energy is going to impact their land use planning, their economic development, and future growth opportunities.

One of the ways Hydro sees an opportunity to assist them is by adding technical support and some small-scale funding at the study level. Second, integration and coordination of policy programs and funding is extremely important. If we can leverage the funds together, we can create more win-win opportunities and we can create more projects. Third, we need to get more practical solutions built and done. I know there's probably going to be some discussion of Dockside Green. I'm going to let that ensue as we move forward, but that's an example of a real, practical project that could work.

The first slide is who we are. I'm going to go through that quite quickly.

I think what is useful for you to know is that we are a crown corporation. We are the third largest utility. We are primarily hydroelectric power. We have met and have slightly exceeded a 90% clean renewable target. We have a very aggressive Power Smart program that I think is the envy of some of our fellow utilities. Finally, we have some of the lowest electricity rates in Canada, which is both a blessing and a curse sometimes when you're trying to get other projects built.

The next slide is looking at the sustainable communities. This is Quest's model, but B.C. Hydro shares this vision of what a future community could look like, and that is looking at a community that has an integrated energy system and local supply options.

As I've said before, customers are not just becoming more interested in the land use planning and the infrastructure side of their business, but they're looking at energy as a way to create additional revenue streams, plan around their communities, and drive and understand future needs and demands.

The next slide lets you know what the backdrop is in B.C. We have a very progressive energy plan that came in in 2007. It's relevant to B.C. Hydro because for the first time it gave us a 50% conservation target and a goal to be self-sufficient by 2016. It also gave us the 90% clean target. All of those have led us to develop and advance some of the programs we're currently involved with. It's important context.

I think what's also interesting is that the province has come forward with an innovative clean energy fund, or the ICE fund as we call it, which is geared to renewable energy projects and sustainable municipal opportunities as well.

We also have an aggressive climate change charter. B.C. Hydro is looking to become carbon neutral by 2020 and we are to be net zero emissions by 2020. Again, although we're largely hydroelectric, a proportion of our system is made up of natural gas, but it's aging natural gas so it's not state of the art.

When we look at our future needs, Hydro has sectioned this off into three components.

First, we will seek cost-effective and practical conservation.

Second, we have been instructed by our provincial government and through the energy plan to buy more through the private sector. That means independent power producers, first nations, or municipalities and communities.

Finally, we will build more. We will look at our existing facilities, existing hydroelectric dams, and we will look to add to those. One example of that is our Revelstoke facility in northern B.C., where we've added two more turbine units. That gives additional capacity on an existing footprint.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Paule Brunelle Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Chair, could you ask the witnesses to speak more slowly? It must be very difficult for the interpreter.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

It takes a little longer with the interpretation, so just a bit slower, if you could.

3:35 p.m.

Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro

Joanne McKenna

I'm wanting to get those ten minutes. Less is more.

The next slide has a lot of information on it. I'm only going to cover a little bit of it, and I will do so more slowly.

Historically, Hydro has been involved largely at a provincial level, when we look at how we plan for the province. We do it through our long-term acquisition plan and our energy planning process. We do forecasts of what our future energy needs will be in 20 years, in 50 years, etc.

On the conservation side, we see that Hydro has been more involved in what we would call the lamps and ballasts level, which has been influencing technology through light bulbs in refrigerators and at the site and building level—high-performance buildings and that kind of thing.

What we've come to realize, and part of this is because of the way communities have become more engaged in energy issues—there's certainly been some assembly of thinking around sustainable communities—is that now we should look at getting involved earlier in the process.

What the diagram here is meant to illustrate is that we've been involved at a very narrow, focused level and need to step back, look more broadly, and get back to the neighbourhood or regional level, where we can start to influence development before it happens. If we can do that, we've found that we can have a larger impact on energy savings, and it would be more cost-effective at the front end than on the retrofit side of the equation.

The next slide has some examples of where municipalities have stepped up and taken some leadership. I'm not going to read all of these. What I wanted to point out is that B.C. has been taking a leadership role with local and municipal governments. They understand the value of sustainable communities—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Mr. Chairman, just to help everyone, I wonder whether the witness.... We're obviously at the slide headed “Municipal Examples”. I think that as you go to a new slide, if you could name the slide, it would be helpful. I see everyone flipping pages around.

This is page 7.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Regan.

Continue, please.

3:35 p.m.

Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro

Joanne McKenna

On page 7 are examples of some of the municipalities that have taken on a leadership role and have either developed sustainable and community energy plans or engaged in district energy mapping or looked at including municipal building standards into their legislation and into their communities.

Slide 8 is basically an illustration of how B.C. Hydro views a sustainable community and what the benefits are to B.C. Hydro. Across this picture you'll see some terminology.

Technology innovation in a sustainable community can help B.C. Hydro create what we call a smart grid, which is basically a grid by means of which we can send communications along the wires to say “We need you to shut down your appliance” or “We're having a crisis on the grid because of a load or a circuit failure and we're going to take power from your plug-in hybrid vehicle”. Those are all in the future—the smart grid is potentially 10 to 20 years out—but these are things we need to start to think about now when we're planning these communities.

From a green buildings perspective, we get the demand-side savings. If it's a green building, it uses less energy.

From a district energy perspective, it can help offload from both heating and cooling standpoints and again use less energy; it's more efficient.

From a distributed generation point of view, it helps customers come up with solutions that are best fit for them and in some cases can add additional revenue streams to either their municipality or their industrial base or their industry.

Sustainable transportation is talking about the plug-in electric vehicles that basically can plug into the house. Hydro, in a future state, could call on that energy if it needed it because of some system crisis or constraint; it's fairly futuristic.

3:35 p.m.

Bloc

Roger Pomerleau Bloc Drummond, QC

So you'd be taking it from the car?

3:35 p.m.

Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro

Joanne McKenna

That's right; it's an electric car. Hydro is working on a hybrid electric vehicle pilot as well.

I'm going to skip the “Utility of the Future”. You can read about it. It's just more on distributed generation and how municipalities could become their own generating plants.

I'm also going to skip over the hydrogen-assisted renewable power slide, which is number 10. That's an interesting project, which we can tell you about later, in the remote community of Bella Coola.

Why don't we get to the last slide, which has the recommendations? This is what we really want to leave you with.

I want to underscore that the federal government already has a number of programs that are helping us to advance renewables and are also providing opportunities to advance technologies. However, I think more leadership can be given at the federal level, and I'd like to talk a little bit about our thoughts on those opportunities.

We think it would be useful if we could apply an energy lens to all infrastructure spending, and that's looking at the Quest approach thinking about that when we think about the way we're building our roads or communities or hospitals. If we can get in at the ground level, we can build greener buildings or more efficiently run buildings. Look at creating flow-through share provisions for the class 43.1. Already on the tax credit side we have a depreciation through the Canadian renewable energy and conservation expense. It's at the pre-development stage; this looks at allowing a flow-through similarly, but it would go to the third party. If a third party were working with a municipality or another entity, it could take that tax advantage even though it wasn't the entity that had the facility. I think you could see creative partnerships with the private sector and local level governments to create solutions in those communities.

Concerning the green infrastructure fund, I think it's fabulous that there's this much money set aside. I guess our question is how it is going to be dispersed, what it is going to be linked to, how it is going to be coordinated. We suggest that it should be targeted to integrated community energy systems and to planning and infrastructure.

We of course would like to see increased funding for R and D and technology innovation. I know there are a number of programs. There's ecoENERGY; I'm not sure what the future holds for it. I know CANMET does some work, and NRCan does some wonderful work. We've had partnership opportunities with NRCan and have been able to do tidal feasibility studies up in the Queen Charlotte Islands. We'd like to see that continue.

That kind of touches on my last point, which is around the coordination of federal, provincial, municipal, and regional programs. When we looked at that feasibility study up in the Queen Charlottes, it brought together the Province of B.C., the federal government, and B.C. Hydro coming to look at a solution for a community that's currently on diesel and that's off-grid.

The other thing we could look at is encouraging our international partnerships and best practices. Canada is lagging behind in terms of technological innovations, particularly around the creation of sustainable communities and the way we use and treat our energy. We need to look to some of the leaders--and a lot of them are in Europe--to build those relationships and learn from those practitioners.

Finally, I want to underscore again that we need to work to implement practical solutions and quick wins to demonstrate that this can work, it can be cost-effective, and it can result in both energy savings and dollar savings in the long run.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you for your presentation, Ms. McKenna.

Now we'll go to Mr. Stout to start.

3:40 p.m.

Douglas Stout Vice-president, Marketing and Business Development, Terasen Gas

Thank you. I will start right in and go to the first slide about Terasen Inc. at the top of it.

I'll start by giving a little background. We're a natural gas and alternative energy utility in British Columbia. We have about $4 billion invested there. We're part of the Fortis group of companies, and the head office is in St. John's, Newfoundland. Fortis owns electric and gas utilities across Canada.

We serve over 900,000 customers in 125 communities, so we have a very broad footprint across the province of British Columbia. And we're regulated in our operations by the British Columbia Utilities Commission.

On the next slide, “The Players”, I'll get in a little here, and when we start talking about what we call district energy systems, or things like the Quest-type program, we break things into two components here, looking at what we call the actors, on this slide, or who the on-the-ground proponents and players are, and who the enablers are below that, supportive with different components.

When we talk about enablers, we're talking about the groups that set the policies, perhaps help with seed funding, and drive awareness and initiatives from that level of things. So we see the federal and provincial governments on that side of things, NGOs, and energy regulators in that same framework.

From an actor's side of things, which gets down really into the municipal governments, you're talking about areas within a municipal surrounding supported by builders and developers, the folks who are putting new infrastructure on the ground, utilities, who build, own, and operate energy systems, and obviously technology providers, and that goes from people doing R and D to people manufacturing and developing new technologies, such as solar panels, and so forth, across the board.

Let's move on to the next slide and talk about what the gas utilities bring to the table. When we think of gas utilities, we think a little more broadly than just our gas load by talking about ourselves as a piped energy utility. As we go through this, you'll see a lot of the energy forms move through pipes, quite often through a water medium, for the energy systems within the buildings.

What we look at is that the utilities obviously have operating expertise, scope, and scale within their various areas across the country. We're able to drive a pretty broad set of solutions. We have the expertise there to drive them across the whole service territory, so we're looking at the options that are available in various communities and really trying to optimize on a broader scale than by each community itself trying to optimize what's available for it.

We see that within that we're all private sector entities, investor-owned utilities, and it's really about bringing private sector capital and expertise to bear for this. So it relieves governments of the need to fund this infrastructure. There may be some component of that, but moving away from funding that new infrastructure. It may even release capital from existing buildings with the acquisition of energy systems, say boiler systems, for example, in a hospital, that can be built out into a district energy system in a town or a city. It enables governments to meet their climate change objectives, and those vary across the country, obviously, in different areas and within different municipalities, but it moves them along that path.

Through the regulated environment, we think we bring fair and competitive energy costs. So you have the regulated environment. There's oversight on what the costs are, how those rates are developed, and how they're charged out to the various customers.

There's a transparency that comes through the regulation, so there's the ability for any of the consumers, taxpayers, and various bodies to intervene in regulatory proceedings and gain insight into what's going on.

And I think most importantly, in the world we're in today, there's mitigating the risk of failure of the investing entity. Through the regulated process, there's great transparency on the capital structure of the entity doing the investing and, in fact, rules and regulations around what that capital structure has to be, and very much transparency into that, even through the process of issuing debt from an investor-owned utility, which falls under the scrutiny of those regulators as well, within the province. So it brings, we think, a good framework and foundation for the ability to develop these district energy systems.

Moving on to the next slide, “Alternative Energy Options”, this will give you a snapshot of a few of the different components that would go together, and these wouldn't necessarily all go together in one system. When you go across communities, there are going to be different opportunities within each community. There may be multiple opportunities within a city, and different mixes of the tools or energy components will be mixed and put together in order to develop an overall integrated energy system. What people call alternative energies here then get melded together with both the natural gas and electric grids, which provide the reliability and the support for these. Some of these are intermittent uses, so you have the back-stopping of the electric and gas grids and, as Ms. McKenna mentioned, also the ability to take energy off these--say on biogas, for example--or to take electricity out of theses systems as well into the grid.

Moving on to the next side, I'll touch on just a few practical examples from our experience. I won't go into great detail on these.

We have a number of projects under way in British Columbia, some that have been operating for a couple of years and some under development. The one in front of you here, on brownfield redevelopment, is in Coquitlam, British Columbia. It's redeveloping an old industrial site. We put the project together, a private developer is doing the development, we're working with them on the energy system, and the City of Coquitlam has provided the support from a zoning perspective and is helping us move down the path to make this come together. It will be a multiple-use, residential, commercial, industrial complex, with a mix of energy sources. There's a local recycling plant that has waste heat that will be incorporated, a geo-exchange or geothermal application, possibilities to add a biomass boiler and natural gas into the grid, and potentially even solar-thermal, those types of things, on each building--so a mix and match of where things go. This will be built out over a period of time, obviously as that neighbourhood develops.

Moving on to the next slide, it's another snapshot, a multi-unit residential complex on Vancouver Island. I won't spend too much time on this, but it's really a ground heat extraction system integrated with natural gas to be build out in a multi-family complex over a period of years.

The next system is an infill development in Victoria, British Columbia. It's an old retail building owned by the Hudson Bay that's being converted to condominiums. There are office complexes and a local hockey rink near this. What's contemplated there is a geo-exchange system on this condominium complex, and over time we'll build out and attach a variety of government office buildings, a skating rink, and other residential and commercial developments into an integrated district energy system within the city of Vancouver. So it's a mix and match of these.

We have smaller projects in smaller centres in British Columbia as well and have projects ongoing in cities in the north, in the central part of British Columbia, and the Lower Mainland-Vancouver area, all putting together different components of these types of systems.

I'll move on to the last slide, the community energy systems. I think this knits together the concept here, but really what we're looking for when we do these is this. You need one or more thermal energy sources, the ability to get heat out, because that's the bulk of what we're providing for heat and hot water. That thermal energy is transported through pipes and via water and you get the mix of end uses, which is what really drives the things. So if you have the combination of heating and cooling opportunities within that complex, then you're driving opportunities to optimize the whole system.

What we find when we put these together, really looking across the spectrum, is different solutions for different communities. So if you're going to be in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, or Ontario, there's a different climate, different types of industry and complexes there, and a built-to-suit solution for every community and every opportunity.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Stout.

Mr. Ydreos, go ahead, please.

Your presentation just continues in the deck you have.

3:50 p.m.

Mel Ydreos Vice-President, Marketing, Union Gas Limited

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much for the opportunity to be in front of you.

I'm very pleased to be here representing Union Gas Limited. We are Canada's largest integrated transmission, storage, and distribution natural gas utility. We serve over 1.3 million customers in over 400 communities in southwestern, eastern, and northern Ontario.

One of the things we're trying to do in the area of integrated energy systems is not only talk about them but demonstrate some leadership. This afternoon I'll give you some examples of how we are participating and trying to facilitate some of these new concepts and some of these new ideas into the grid and into the way we think about energy and the way we use energy.

If we can move to the Burlington Service Centre slide, this is one of three service centres we're currently constructing. This one has been completed. It has been occupied for about nine months. The other two--one in Windsor, Ontario, and the other one in Kingston--will be completed later this year. What's unique about these buildings is not that we have chosen a very high standard in terms of their energy efficiency, that being the gold LEED standard, but we have fundamentally changed the way we view the buildings from an energy perspective. These buildings are self-sufficient. They use natural gas to generate the electrical needs of the buildings and the excess capacity is then thrown into the grid. These buildings have systems that exist on their own and are capable of moving electricity back into the grid while using the excess heat that is generated for the building.

What's important about this is that it's a fundamental shift in the way we think of energy systems, and this is the best example I can use. In these types of buildings, typically we would build back-up generators. These are important buildings; they have planning and dispatch functions, emergency functions, so we would build back-up generators in these buildings in the event of power outages. These buildings do not have back-up generators, because the grid is the back-up generator. Because these buildings generate their own electricity, you reverse the whole thinking in the way you design and build these sites.

We're very pleased also to have joined Burlington Hydro in their just-announced GridSmartCity initiative, which is a 10-point plan on how renewables, conservation, and systems like this can coexist within the grid and fundamentally rethink our whole approach to the way our energy is used and supplied within the community.

The next slide talks about the City of Guelph. As was mentioned earlier, the municipalities are stepping up their focus and attention on community energy plans. I'm very pleased to say we've participated with the City of Guelph and I consider the City of Guelph as one of the leaders in this area. They have been very proactive. They have really challenged the status quo and have aggressively pursued ways of rethinking how energy is created within a community, how it is distributed, and how it is used. The best example is that the University of Guelph is currently looking at building a fairly significant co-generation plant that will not only meet its own energy needs but will supply electricity into the grid and meet the needs of the city in that way.

These are very exciting opportunities. The role we play is that we can bridge some knowledge gaps, because other communities within our franchise area are having similar discussions. We can bring those common ideas and discussions to the table collectively and share our learning with these municipalities and then jointly look at what from the total tool kit works for that community, because as was mentioned earlier, this is not one size fits all. Every community has different characteristics—there are urban, there are rural—and therefore, you have to pick what technologies and what applications really make sense for that specific community.

Let me go to the next slide, on biogas. This is another recent development, at least within our franchise area. This is where we have the opportunity of turning agricultural waste into energy. Most of the discussion up to this stage has been to the effect that biogas would be generating electricity at the location where it gets turned into energy.

Well, we have technology now that can actually turn the biogas into pipeline-quality natural gas, and therefore it becomes a clean source in the natural gas pipeline system. Again it's very early, but it's very exciting. We're getting a bit of momentum going on this, and certainly we're keen to advance these ideas, because this provides us with a clean energy supply into our pipeline network.

I'll go to the next slide and speak a little bit about our international presence, which was mentioned previously.

I'm very pleased to say that the Canadian Gas Association is an active member of the International Gas Union. The International Gas Union is a worldwide non-profit organization that has 72 charter members. For all intents and purposes, all of Europe participates, Asia participates, as well as the Middle East and Russia. It is a worldwide organization. I currently have the privilege of acting as the vice-chair of a special task force on research and development in the natural gas area for this organization. What this gives us is really a window into the entire world, on what is being developed and advanced in the different regions of the world. It gives us access to tremendous information and knowledge.

The most exciting accomplishment in the IGU was back in 2003 in Tokyo, when we, along with eight other countries, were in a design competition on sustainable urban systems. I'm pleased to say that Team Canada was awarded the grand prize. Our submission was called Citiesplus, and with it we were awarded the first prize for being visionary in the way we think of urban systems and how those systems will be integrated. Vancouver was the city used as our study area, where we developed the concepts around what a city like Vancouver would look like 100 years from now.

I'll move on to the next slide, about taking the tool box to Canadian communities. In summary, what I've said is that integrated energy systems is about using a variety of applications that are suitable to the community and that make sense for the application. It's not one shoe fits all. The factors again include whether it is a rural community or an urban community, an existing community or a brand new community, and what the land use and zoning are. The tool kit has a sufficient variety of approaches that it can apply to all those scenarios in some meaningful and productive way to make our energy use much more efficient and also to reduce the level of emissions that currently we emit through the use of energy.

Finally, I'll go to the role of the federal government. I was in at the ground level when the idea of Quest was being talked about, and I participated in the first Quest meeting. It is simply astonishing what momentum we've been able to garner in just two short years. We have significant momentum from a multi-stakeholder group of organizations and individuals, and it is absolutely important that we continue to push Quest forward.

To do that, there needs to be some alignment in policies between the federal, provincial, and ultimately municipal governments, an alignment that makes them consistent with this concept of integrated energy systems and does not provide barriers to advancing these ideas.

We need to ensure that technology funding supports the development of integrated community energy systems. And it's very important that we recognize that integrated energy systems will offer a tremendous opportunity not only for employment development and for bringing communities and community organizations together. It's very important that we view the value this will have to our communities and that we therefore provide some incentives and funding towards development of the tool kit that I called for before.

Program funding to support integrated systems needs to be front and centre. The clean energy technology fund and the Building Canada fund criteria should be structured in a way that supports these sorts of projects and investments, because they are fundamental to how we'll redesign the way we view energy and consume energy within our communities.

I thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Thank you very much, Mr. Ydreos, and thank you to all of our deputants.

This is an exciting initiative, and the committee is certainly dedicated to taking what you have said and attempting to develop policies that would be consistent with that kind of comprehensive approach, an approach through the municipalities, utilities, the developers—all segments and spectra of the economy. So we thank you for being here; it's very encouraging.

We'll go now to the seven-minute rounds, and we'll start with Mr. Regan.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And to the witnesses, thank you again.

Let me begin by saying that I think one of the goals we probably all share is to promulgate and create more awareness of the kinds of activities you've been talking about today. Part of the question we all face is how we get this to happen more quickly. How do we get more Canadian communities to engage in this kind of activity?

I'll start with Ms. McKenna and perhaps go across the group.

4:05 p.m.

Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro

Joanne McKenna

That's a really good question, one we've been asked by some of our politicians in B.C.

It's probably a combination of a number of things, from my perspective. One thing is getting the word out, which is the education part, and dispelling some myths around the subject. There's a myth that green buildings and green and renewable technologies cost a lot more money and are inefficient or unreliable. We have to look at dispelling some of the myths around the subject and at creating a bit more of an education platform.

Also, I'd like to go back to leveraging the pool of resources we have currently. It's a big challenge. I want to underscore that I don't think this is something simple, in which you get people into a room and say this is how we should do it. It's very challenging to get at the multiple levels of government and get us onto one page. Part of it is complicated, frankly, by the political process, and part of it is determining how you select one community over another.

Really, some greater form of coordination among the different funding actors needs to be looked at, picking some projects that are going to be clear wins and good showcases.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

Would anybody else like to respond?

Mr. Ydreos.

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Marketing, Union Gas Limited

Mel Ydreos

Thank you.

As I said, I think we have significant momentum with Quest, so any support of Quest would be very helpful. But I think the key is demonstrations of technology.

The decision we made on the three buildings, by the way, is to not deploy the same technology in every building. We're trying three different types of approach, so that we turn those sites into true demonstration sites, and proponents and customers can come in and experience and see this stuff. You can't tell someone to go to Spain to see something, or to go to Japan to see and experience something. We need to leap forward and support some of these demonstrations, because they are the ones that actually create the excitement and the momentum and spread the word.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Where do you see the shortcomings in current federal policy in achieving that, Mr. Ydreos?

4:05 p.m.

Vice-President, Marketing, Union Gas Limited

Mel Ydreos

It is unclear to us, with the funding that has been set aside, whether community energy integration systems would actually qualify for some of the funding that is available through the stimulus package. They tend to talk about renewables, but renewables tend to focus only on large wind farms or large solar farms. These are much more community-based, much more integrated types of approaches that we're talking about here.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS

Let me ask another question to Ms. McKenna about B.C. Hydro. I know that you offer a number of energy efficiency types of programs at B.C. Hydro, such as refrigerator buybacks, appliance rebates, window offers, etc. How many of these programs involve federal participation? And is there more that you feel the Government of Canada could be doing to provide support and promotion of these kinds of programs?

4:05 p.m.

Project Manager, Distributed Generation Strategy, Customer Care and Conservation, B.C. Hydro

Joanne McKenna

That's a good question. I'm afraid I couldn't say definitively whether they include federal moneys. I think there are similar programs at a federal level. I'm not sure, but I think that if you are a resident in B.C. you'd still have to apply separately. It's not a coordinated credit, for instance; you would need to get your provincial credit and then go to the federal government. For a furnace, for example, you would go to the Live Smart BC website and get your money there, but you still might be eligible for something at the federal level under the retrofit. That could be an issue for greater coordination, I would suggest.

4:05 p.m.

Vice-president, Marketing and Business Development, Terasen Gas

Douglas Stout

Mr. Chair, let me add on the question of coordination that the programs are there. It is a coordination question, but it's one of finding some way that people don't have go through multiple application processes. Probably a tighter administration could save some dollars and make it easy for people to get involved with it, so that they could deal through their local area in order to work through the programs.

4:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Alan Tonks

There is a minute and 45 seconds left.