Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2010

[Dr. David Boerner]

We're not the exact experts to answer that with a clear answer, but I can tell you that there are regulations and requirements for the industry to monitor their fracturing process. For example, they have to have sensors close by to the hole to monitor how large a motion in the ground is created by the fracturing of the rock, and they can tell how far the fractures extend. So we have—not us, but the companies and the regulators actually have this—direct evidence from them of how much ground movement is taking place.

As one of the witnesses said earlier, I think the fractures end up being the thickness of a piece of paper and they can extend over maybe 100 metres. We're talking about things that are under two kilometres of rock, which is a considerable amount of weight and pressure and everything else.

I'm probably answering the question for him.

[Gerard Kennedy, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I'd be happy to hear Monsieur Lavoie.

Yes, please go ahead.

[Denis Lavoie]

There are two aspects to your question. The first one is the intensity of that fracturing event--how destructive it can be and how big it can be.

As Dr. Boerner was saying, the industry is putting seismographs in adjacent wells to record the earth movement at the time of fracturing. They are recording those values and expressing them in terms of the Richter scale, as for any other type of earthquake.

You may not know that on the Richter scale there are negative values; at the time they defined the Richter scale, the smallest earthquake they could register was given a zero value, but with more modern instruments we can go into negative values for smaller earthquakes. The intensities of those fracturing events are between -2 and -3 on the Richter scale, so these are very small seismic events that are recorded.

With reference to the permeability or the preservation of the water or the gas in the rock, in most of the shale gas rocks in Canada the gas was generated hundreds of millions of years ago, and it's still trapped in those rocks. That means that the geological system was fairly impermeable.

We have some other examples in Quebec, for example. There is an old gas field that has been exploited near Quebec City. It's called the Saint-Flavien gas field. That gas was generated by the Utica shale and has been trapped in that conventional reservoir, overlaid by the Utica and the Lorraine shale. The gas has been there for 450 million years. Those geological systems are very impermeable systems.

[Gerard Kennedy, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

I take from this--

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. Your time is up, and then some.

We'll go to Madame Brunelle. You have up to seven minutes. Please go ahead.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Good afternoon. My question is for the officials from Natural Resources Canada.

The Geological Survey of Canada has conducted a study. Mr. D'Iorio, you said that we could obtain the results, but I have not been able to access them. I would particularly like to know which issues were addressed. Are we talking about the scope of the resource, its location and potential? That appears to have been documented, since we have received maps. Or did the study rather deal with environmental issues, such as the amount of clean water that is used —which is of concern to people —chemicals in the water, or threats to the environment? What was the role of the Geological Survey of Canada?

[Denis Lavoie]

The Geological Survey of Canada is....

I apologize. The Geological Survey of Canada...

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I was wondering, given your name...

[Denis Lavoie]

I really do apologize. I was visualizing the question.

Since the founding of the Geological Survey of Canada in 1842, this scientific body has produced basic geological data which is fundamental to understanding sedimentary basins in Canada. One of the research topics included in this fundamental geological data is an evaluation of hydrocarbon potential. That work included several studies on conventional systems. Bear in mind that the interest in shale gas is recent. For many years, the Geological Survey worked on hydrocarbons and conventional systems. The systems include parent rock, the rock from which hydrocarbons are produced. Today, we are looking at shale for shale gas. Shale produces hydrocarbons. We have taken a very close look at its characteristics: the thickness, the geographic distribution, the amount of organic material, the degree of thermal maturity, of heat exposure, to determine if the organic shale produced oil or gas. So a host of scientific data is available in the various publications by the Geological Survey of Canada, on the geological aspects of conventional hydrocarbons.

With shale gas, the parent rock, the rock which is the source of hydrocarbons, is also the reservoir. So we try to produce from this source rock. The data relating to this kind of work is the same as that which is used to evaluate conventional systems. We try to determine the amount of organic material, and the quantity of gas present in the rock. There has not been a specific study on shale gas rock, since we had already studied it as parent rock in conventional systems.

The Geological Survey synthesized the material and produced a preliminary assessment of shale potential in Canada in 2006. Tony Hamblin from the Geological Survey of Canada is the author of the report which is available to the public. I don't remember which issue it is, but I could send it to you. In recent years, this report has been one of the Geological Survey's leading publications, the one which has been most successful in bookstores, we are told. It has been downloaded many, many times. It covers current knowledge of shale gas in Canada.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Does the Geological Survey of Canada go as far as making suggestions, for example to the provincial government, which has jurisdiction, and to industry, on ways of preserving the resource and ensuring everything is done in an environmentally friendly way? Is that part of your mandate or not at all?

[Marc D'Iorio]

Once again, the information we produce is made public. Beyond that, at the start of October Mr. Lavoie appeared before the BAPE. We provide our expertise in various ways, both through reports which are made public and by providing expertise at the request of various provinces or jurisdictions.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have some questions about your role at the Department of Natural Resources Canada. Do you provide the government with advice? Gas and oil is fine, but there are other kinds of energy, including ones that are greener. Are you consulted to determine whether we should try to develop wind energy, hydroelectricity or another type of energy? Do you play a role in that?

[Marc D'Iorio]

I am the director general of the Office of Energy Research and Development. Investments in oil and gas make up only a part of our portfolio. We also invest in demonstrations of renewable energy and conduct more in depth research on the regulatory environment or security.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Do political decisions dictate what research will be done in which field?

[Marc D'Iorio]

The Program of Energy Research and Development was implemented in 1974, that is right after the 1973 oil crisis. This is a federal program whose direction is mandated by various federal government departments. No fewer than 12 government departments work on this program and do research in all manner of energy-related fields.

As for policy decisions, the government proceeds through the budgetary process and the public service implements these decisions. So the answer is yes, some programs are mandated by the government, whether they be green plans or clean energy programs.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Do I still have a little bit of time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

One minute.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I still have an issue with federal versus provincial jurisdiction. We know that the Bloc Québécois vigorously defends provincial jurisdiction.

You said that the drilling and pumping of onshore oil and gas is mainly regulated by the provinces. What do you mean by mainly?

[Marc D'Iorio]

"Mainly" means that for chemical products or under certain circumstances, for example on crown lands managed by INAC, there are some cases where a federal department might have a role to play.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

And that's where you come in.

[Marc D'Iorio]

That's right.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you Ms. Brunelle.

We'll go now to Mr. Cullen for up to seven minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

And thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony.

Mr. Dunn, to bring you back to another conversation, we had one of your competitors up earlier committing publicly to disclose the chemicals used in the fracturing process.

Is that something Encana is doing right now or is willing to do in the future?

[Richard Dunn]

Yes, we're doing it now.