Natural Resources Committee on Dec. 9th, 2010

[Colin Kinsley]

Absolutely.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Did raw log exports help or hurt the upgrading manufacturing, the value-added industry in forestry, in British Columbia in particular?

[Colin Kinsley]

Well, I have friends in the logging business in the Terrace region. There are no mills open, and now the mill in Rupert has closed down. I would suggest that the raw log exports have helped, because maybe the mill workers aren't working but the loggers are. Would you have everybody out of work?

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's an interesting notion.

We invited Enbridge to the committee. They chose not to attend today. We've asked for clarification. They've declared publicly and to me privately--I'm sure to you as well--that they were able to raise $100 million for the promotion of the Enbridge gateway pipeline project, but they won't tell us from whom.

Are you aware of where the money has come from?

[Colin Kinsley]

No. There are unitholders on a proposal, and as I think any fair-minded person would know, they're not going to divulge who those people are who are funding a review process, if you will, a project. There's no licence and over $100 million will be spent preparing for the submission.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Sterritt, across British Columbia, can we allocate a percentage of what public and official declarations first nations have made with respect to the export of 500,000 barrels a day of raw bitumen down the Enbridge pipeline to Kitimat?

[Art Sterritt]

The percentage of first nations who are against this project right now, from our perspective, has been just about 100%. The Union of BC Indian Chiefs, the First Nations Summit, the Fraser tribes, and the coastal tribes have all declared that they're opposed to this project.

I want the committee to be aware that the fact that Enbridge may or may not have entered into protocols with certain first nations is not an indication of support. Protocols are a requirement that proponents are encouraged to enter into with first nations to try to develop relationships. Indeed, five years ago, Coastal First Nations entered into a protocol with Enbridge itself, and we're opposed.

I know for a fact that there is not one first nation in British Columbia that supports the Enbridge Northern Gateway project.

I'm not sure whether that answers your question, Nathan.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Yes.

Mr. Sterritt, just to be clear—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Cullen, I'm sorry, but your time is up.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

By the way, I just want to mention, Mr. Cullen, that I think you indicated that Enbridge had declined to come. That's not true. They were invited. They haven't responded yet. If we choose to extend this study, which I want a 15-minute discussion about at the end of Tuesday's meeting, they may well, with more time, decide to come. That will be determined.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That would be excellent. Thank you for clarifying, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

I just wanted to correct that.

We'll go to Mr. Harris for up to seven minutes.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm sure that was an oversight by Mr. Cullen in his remarks.

Mr. Kinsley, it's nice to see you here today.

I want to try to focus and see whether I have it right on the exhaustive environmental review process that this has to go through before even one shovel goes into the ground for the pipeline.

But also, it's my understanding that the tanker ships we're talking about are beyond world class from the safety point of view, with double or triple hulls, compartmentalization, and every possible safety feature to guard against a major spill in the event of going onto a rock or something like that. Now, when you add to that the GPS technology, which I'm not an expert in either, I am led to understand that this can track a 400- or 500-foot ship within inches of where they are on their route. Then you add to that the tug boats, which will be mandatory to guide the ships out of the channels, and you add to that the commitment for the vastly increased spill response commitments that Enbridge is going to be obligated to commit to and to keep.

If some day the sky is going fall and the world is going to end, somehow, in this particular case, I think the likelihood of an accident—anything that it is presupposed could happen—is being looked after now, so that if, God forbid, anything ever does happen, and it may not ever, for sure....

But Mr. Cullen and Mr. Sterritt don't seem to recognize all of these precautions, processes, regulations, compliances, and obligations that are put in place before even one shovel goes into the ground, let alone one drop of oil.... Can you comment on this?

I'm sorry--I took too long.

[Colin Kinsley]

Mr. Chairman, if I have the leeway, I could comment on the industry, because also in my previous life I was in the pipeline industry and a construction superintendent for northern British Columbia with BC Gas.

Everything has changed. For the pipe integrity, right from the factories in Regina now, it's a whole new process in how the steel is produced and how the pipe is made. We used to wrap the pipe for corrosion protection with tar paper. It's now epoxied right onto the pipe. That's the same thing.... I would speak very briefly. Almost 22 years ago, the Exxon Valdez disaster in Prince William Sound was an incredible environmental disaster, there's no question. It hasn't happened since, because the rules changed the next day.

One good thing about us as humankind is that we learn from our mistakes. Some 90% of the world's oil moves around on tankers. They're taking it to the tankers by pipeline. I hope our technical people come to supply the technical stuff on the numbers. The volumes of oil on a chart go upwards, and the incidents have gone down, because we learn. It's a changed world.

There was a report done. Unfortunately, I only perused it, because it was quite lengthy. The occurrence for a spill was one in two hundred years or something like that. Mr. Sterritt talked about the worst-case scenario, and I think it was like a perfect storm; it was about one in two thousand. Those technical numbers are available to the committee through the submission that Enbridge has already made to the JRP.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Cullen talks about things that need to be done before tanker traffic could ever conceivably be operated and the pipeline built. My understanding is that there is a commitment, not only by the regulators that this must be done, but also by the proponents: that they understand this is an obligation before anything happens.

[Colin Kinsley]

Absolutely. Enbridge is a transportation company. Think of it as a trucking company without the wheels and tires. It's a pipeline. They need to get the product that they've contracted for from a producer to a customer. Every drop has to get there. That's how shareholder value is built; that's how profits are generated. They're not in the business of taking shortcuts to do that. This will be done not only to Canada's world-class standards. It will be done to Enbridge world-class operational guidelines.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Just to be clear, this is not simply about a project going on to benefit Alberta and the areas of British Columbia and the west coast. This project in fact is part of the Canadian economy. This will contribute tax dollars to the federal coffers, as well as the provincial coffers, to be part of paying for every single spending program we have, including every social program, every employment assistance program, every educational program, and every health program. Every program you can imagine that's funded by the federal or provincial government can only come from one source and that's from tax revenue.

While folks like Mr. Cullen want to keep his area of the province in the global recession that we're nicely coming out of in the rest of Canada, I would like to think that the job opportunities and the economic benefits that could be provided to the communities along this proposed pipeline could be tremendous, and I suggest that they're perhaps not giving enough attention to that.

[Colin Kinsley]

The numbers are huge, but the one that's closest to my heart relates to local government. The local government taxation—municipal taxes—to pay for municipal services such as solid-waste management, 9-1-1 response, regional parks, and all of those kinds of things, will be in the neighbourhood, over the 30-year economic lifespan of a pipeline, of almost $1 billion. That will go to small and large communities all the way from Bruderheim, Alberta, to Kitimat, B.C.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We have three witnesses by video conference in the second half of our meeting. It will take a bit longer to set it up, so we're going to break a bit early in this session.

Thank you very much, Mr. Kinsley, and thank you very much, Mr. Sterritt, for appearing before our committee today. We very much appreciate it.

We'll suspend the meeting now for a couple of minutes as we get set up for the second panel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

We'll resume our meeting now on energy security.

The second panel involves three witnesses coming to us by video conference. The first is from Prince Rupert, British Columbia, from the United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union—Canadian Auto Workers, Arnold Nagy, president of Local 31.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Nagy, for up to seven minutes.

[Arnold Nagy, President, Local 31, United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union - Canadian Auto Workers]

Thanks to you, Mr. Chair, and also to the rest of the committee, for allowing me to speak to you today.

My name is Arnold Nagy. I'm here on behalf of the United Fishermen and Allied Workers' Union--Canadian Auto Workers.

I have worked in the fishing industry for the past 32 years. I am the president of Local 31 of our union and also the chair of its environment committee. All the work done by our environment committee is done on a volunteer basis. Any costs are fully paid for by our membership from the dues we collect from them.

The fishing industry has been the one economic constant on the north coast for over 100 years, providing employment to countless generations of shore workers and fishermen. These plant workers and fishermen don't come only from the community of Prince Rupert where I live. Many also come from the surrounding first nation and non-first-nations communities, including some that are hundreds of miles up the Skeena River.

On average, the fishing industry provides $135 million a year to the economies of these areas. With the collapse of the forest industry in British Columbia, the fishing industry is now the largest private employer in the north and central coasts of British Columbia.

The UFAWU has for many years defended both the freshwater and marine environments that our fisheries depend on. Whether it has been pesticide spraying, forestry practices, offshore oil and gas exploration, coal-bed methane drilling, or dams on important rivers, we have been standing up for the environment of our fish resource, which we depend on to make our living. That is why we are presenting our concerns to you today.

I once again find myself having to put forward our position in order to make sure our concerns are heard. We are witnessing an unprecedented gold rush mentality in the north that threatens the future of the fishing industry, the many coastal communities that depend on it, and the people who work in it.

Over the years, we have witnessed many proposals that pose risks to the Skeena River and the surrounding areas, where salmon runs could be wiped out forever. Every time we have raised our concerns, we have been called fearmongers or accused of spreading misinformation. I would suggest that protecting our livelihoods and the environment we depend on is the responsible thing to do if we wish to preserve this industry for future generations.

Proposals have recently been put forward by Shell to drill for coal-bed methane at the confluence of the Nass, the Stikine, and the Skeena Rivers; it is also known as the Klappan or Sacred Headwaters. One accident on this proposed project would wipe out three high-producing salmon rivers and ruin the livelihoods of everyone who depends on these rivers to make their living. The tourism industry, the guides, the entire northern commercial fishing industry—all these would be wiped out.

Today, once again, the issue of pipelines and oil tankers has raised its ugly head, with little concern for the local economies and the industries that would be affected by an accident. The bottom line is to build the two pipelines and move bitumen to Kitimat, to be loaded onto oil tankers along with condensate and shipped to Alberta at whatever cost.

I find it interesting, but not surprising, to hear those interested in seeing an oil port in Kitimat trying to sell us on the safety of these proposals, even while Mr. Scott Vaughan, Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, raises the alarm that Canada cannot deal with a major oil spill emanating from a tanker. He was troubled by the government's lack of readiness, given that one oil spill is reported to the Canadian Coast Guard every day.

Mr. Chairman, these jobs in the fishing industry are permanent, high-paying jobs that employ thousands of British Columbia residents. The pipeline jobs will create short-term construction, but after they are done, there will not be many full-time jobs created by any projects of this kind.

Does it really make sense not to take a serious look at how we are being caught up in this gold rush mentality to maximize profits at any cost? I would suggest not. We must be willing to approach these issues with the common sense that is required to protect our environment and the many communities that will be affected by the decisions made. We have paid a very heavy economic price to rebuild our salmon resource and other fish resources here in the north, and our communities cannot afford another economic hit, which we will take if the commercial fishery is damaged.

As a member of the Haida nations, I can say that the fishing industry has been an important part of my family's history for well over 100 years and the fisheries resource for well over 10,000 years. I raise this issue because the issue of compensation always raises its head as the way to alleviate the fear of any spills or damage to the environment when an accident occurs. I have spent many a night thinking about this question and trying to figure out something that nobody is willing to answer.

The question is, Mr. Chair, when an accident happens, how is money going to compensate the first nations peoples for 10,000 years of culture that has been destroyed? As I say, I cannot find the answer, and I cannot find anybody willing to give me that answer.

Secondly, we in the fishing industry do not want to live off compensation payments. We want to catch fish. We want to process them in our plants. That's what we do best, and that's why we are the best in the world at what we do. The Canadian canned salmon market fish is the best in the world and is considered so. The Skeena River sockeye is the only can of fish that has its own identity code. It is identified as fish caught in the Skeena River because of the supreme quality of the product going into that can.

Working in the fishing industry is a job we want to do for many generations to come, and we want to be able to pass it on to future generations. We have the opportunity today to help inform you of our concerns so you can help us to protect our livelihoods and understand our concerns in that regard.

As Canadians, we cannot afford to follow the gold rush mentality we are all witnessing. We have to be able to take back control, step back, and make sure that our future communities and livelihoods are not put at risk to increase the profit margin of shareholders or big companies.

I have been accused in the past, Mr. Chair, of being used to further American interests to access our oil by working to have oil tanker bans and by working against the Enbridge pipeline project. I would like to assure the committee that this is the farthest thing from what I am working towards. My concern is to stand up for the communities and the industry in which I make my living, and for the environment, a healthy environment that provides these economic opportunities in the community I live in.

I would like to let the committee know that I also work as a longshoreman in the Port of Prince Rupert. We depend on the shipping industry for that work. I would like to let you know that I have received nothing but good comments from the people I work with at Maher Terminals on the efforts we are making in our union to raise the issue of our coastal communities and to protect them, their economies, and the environment on which we all depend so much here in the north.

Mr. Chair, the first nations say that you cannot separate fish from people. The well-being of our communities and that of the sea are inseparable. Fishermen say that the sea is part of their soul.

Commercial fishery members are optimistic that sanity will prevail and that our communities will continue to profit from an unspoiled marine habitat, abundant fish stocks, and healthy fisheries for many generations to come.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank you for your time in allowing me to speak on this issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Nagy, for your presentation, and thank you for taking the time to be with us today.

The second witness is by video conference as well. From Calgary, Alberta, from the Canadian Energy Pipeline Association, we have Brenda Kenny, president and chief executive officer. As soon as we get you on the video, we'll ask you to start, Ms. Kenny.

[Brenda Kenny, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Pipeline Association]

Thank you.