Evidence of meeting #45 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alberta.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Innovates - Energy and Environment Solutions
Thank you.
My opinion is that this country needs an energy strategy. We need to know what the future looks like so that we can plan ahead. I understand the difficulty in developing one, because of our patchwork of different energy resources across the country. Western Canada is fossil-based and eastern Canada is more nuclear- and hydro-based, so this does create difficulties, but I think it's important--
NDP
Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Innovates - Energy and Environment Solutions
--that we do that. Otherwise, it's difficult to plan for the future.
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
I agree 100% that we need an energy strategy for Canada—absolutely.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
There's been a notion put forward, and I'm wondering if your group has considered this aspect for a number of the communities along the route. It's always a question of risk and benefit and what benefits will be seen. One of the benefits that's been proposed is to develop the use of waste heat from the compressor stations to generate electricity for communities. A lot of these communities are sitting on diesel. They are very remote, and it's very expensive.
Has your group, or the group at large, looked into this as part of your proposal, or would you consider it?
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
We haven't looked specifically at using waste heat to generate electricity. I'm aware that has been done on the TransCanada Pipeline system. It could be looked at in this case as well. The plan at the moment is to utilize the natural gas from the pipeline to replace diesel in the communities along the route.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
When Justice Berger came out with his report 34 years ago, it was much criticized by industry at the time, and it was a shock to the then Liberal government. He was supposed to go up there, look around, and approve the Mackenzie in its state at that time. There was much opposition, in particular from first nations communities along the way—members of your group.
Has Justice Berger been proven right in a sense? If so, what are the implications for Canada going forward with other energy projects, energy plays, that go on right across the country?
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
In hindsight, there's no question that Justice Berger was correct in deferring this project back then. The aboriginal communities were simply not in a position at that time to take advantage of the huge benefits that could accrue to them. The big difference was the land claim settlements, and that's what Justice Berger recommended.
NDP
Nathan Cullen NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
I want to extrapolate this a bit for both of you, then. With the particular attention given to Mackenzie and settling some of the land claims along the way, thus making equity available, we're seeing more and more mining companies and oil and gas companies setting up economic arms that are then available to first nations to participate in.
Some of them are good and some are a bit more thin, yet we don't necessarily see a lot of leadership coming from the federal government in settling that uncertainty. Companies are constantly talking to us about certainty; if there isn't certainty in the market, if there isn't certainty on the land, it's very hard to go to the market and attract sometimes billions of dollars.
Mr. Isaacs or Mr. Reid, how critical is having that question settled around first nations rights? I assume there is an obvious role of the federal government in doing that, but it seems to me that industry is doing it right now. They're not necessarily obligated to do it, while the federal government is constitutionally obligated to do it.
Chief Executive Officer, Alberta Innovates - Energy and Environment Solutions
I'll let Mr. Reid handle this one.
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
Absolutely fundamental to the whole process is the settlement of the land claims. That was the key that unlocked the Mackenzie Valley and turned the aboriginal groups around from absolute opposition back in the 1970s to being partners in the project today. It really introduced the aboriginal communities to the wage economy and to the importance of economic development.
Today in the north, the aboriginal youth have access to satellite television, digital cell phones, and things like that. They see how the rest of the world lives. They don't want to go out and chop wood to keep warm; they want to turn up the thermostat. Living off the land is moving away from being the prime mover in the north.
Of course, the land is still very important to aboriginal people, and it becomes very important for recreation, but the mainstream there is now more wage oriented. They have to have dollars to fill up their ATVs, snowmobiles, and so on. We've moved a long way since the 1970s.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Cullen.
We'll go to the government side. Mr. Harris, you have up to seven minutes.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and gentlemen, I thank you.
Mr. Reid, there have been some announcements from the Chinese folks that natural gas is their target in the future. They can see their purchases of oil and coal declining as a result of switching over to natural gas. I would imagine that Asia has to be a real market for you down the road.
I see in your deck that the line will run down to the northern Alberta border. If you are to tap into the Asian market, what would be the route for your gas?
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
There's currently a proposal to construct a pipeline from the Spectra system in British Columbia over to Kitimat, convert the natural gas to LNG, and export it to the Asian market.
To get northern gas into that system, our system interconnects with TransCanada. TransCanada actually has a leg that goes into southeastern B.C., and there is a connection between the TransCanada system and the Spectra system at that point. By exchanges, you could get Mackenzie gas up to Kitimat and sold in the export market.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Given the capacity that you'd need, it would mean constructing a new pipeline out to the Kitimat area.
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
Yes, and there is a proposal to do that at this time.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Right, and then they would liquefy it there and ship it by freighter over to Asia.
I'm sure you're aware of the problems we have out in the northwest part of British Columbia. We have a tremendous amount of concern from the energy companies over the anti-freighter, anti-pipeline groups that are out there. As a matter of fact, Mr. Cullen, who is not here, plays a leadership role in that effort out there to stop any type of line going out to the northwest to Kitimat.
I'm encouraged by how you've managed to get the first nations groups on board up in the Northwest Territories, but out in the northwest Mr. Cullen and his friends have managed to inflame the groups out there to the point that they're saying no to everything, to every effort. That surely has to cause you some problems with the future vision of the Asian market.
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
We're not targeting the Asian market at this point. I really can't comment on the aboriginal situation in southern Canada.
As I said earlier, it's important to note that it was our aboriginal regions that came together and established a priority for themselves to participate in the pipeline and seek a better way of life.
Conservative
Dick Harris Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
I appreciate that.
With regard to tapping into the Asian market, the shale gas people tell us that down in the United States the fields are so big that the dependence on Canadian gas will decline over the next 10 years as they develop this huge Marcellus basin, etc., so all eyes seem to be turning west to Asia as a good market to move into.
Of course, the port at Kitimat is the ideal loading point, given the facilities they've got there. As I said, the anti-freighter, anti-pipeline groups are very active out there, and there appears to be no reconciliation as long as they stay in the mood they are in, so I see that as a problem.
I had a question here. You said it was going to create 7,000 jobs over the construction period. That's amazing. There are three first nations in the area that are part of your group. How will that affect the unemployment in those first nations? What's the current unemployment rate, and how would that change with the construction?
President, Mackenzie Valley Aboriginal Pipeline LP
The current unemployment rate in the Northwest Territories is very high. It's a real concern. In the Mackenzie Valley itself there is simply no economic base.
Conservative