Natural Resources Committee on March 10th, 2011

[Denis Lapointe]

Earlier Ms. Brunelle said that her constituents were concerned. Another member also said that his were concerned. They're concerned because not all the information on this shipment was provided. Citizens don't have a genuine understanding of this entire process, of this entire project, as it relates to the management of nuclear materials. Obviously, the imagination can become very fertile when it comes to nuclear issues. So it's important for information to be provided before the process is triggered and before any decisions are made. It is important to provide citizens with this information and for it to be assimilated by the population as a whole. Lastly, if this is the only solution that can be adopted, let's put very concrete measures in place—and show the public that this has been done—to ensure as far as possible that there will not be any problems along the way. An additional effort should be made in that direction.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Cullen.

We will go now to the government side and Mrs. Davidson, who will be followed by others if time permits.

Go ahead, please.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks very much to each of our presenters here this afternoon.

I'm the member of Parliament for Sarnia—Lambton. My riding is on the route that this shipment will be going on.

Dr. Lynn, I have a couple of questions for you, if I might. I am sure you are well aware there are questions in my community. How would you answer those questions? How would you assure people that this is safe? You talked a bit about the transportation and so on, but could you elaborate on that for me, please?

[Dr. Hazel Lynn]

When you look at a risk and a hazard, you need to look at the probability of the event happening and then the consequence of the exposure.

The probability of something going wrong once the boilers are loaded and transported down to Sarnia is very low. When was the last time a boat sank? When was the last time a boat of this sort had an accident? There isn't any history of that.

Then on the consequences, what would happen if it if did sink, and how quickly could they get the boilers back out? What is the thought on damage? For all these things, if you've read the CNSC proposal, some of this has been dealt with. The risk of exposure is very low, and the consequence is also very low.

To me, this is not a huge human health risk. If you consider the risk due to a motor vehicle accident or to the results of smoking and so on, those increase the risks to humans far more. Even on the amount of radiation, the amount of radiation that is shipped every day to hospitals doing cancer therapy is orders of magnitude higher than this, and it is shipped without anybody's knowledge.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

We heard on Tuesday there was no threat to drinking water, to municipalities that take their water from the Great Lakes system. Do you agree with that?

[Dr. Hazel Lynn]

Absolutely. Especially if there has been no injury or accident, there will be no increased radiation exposure.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay. I just have one further question for you and then I'm going to pass it over to my colleague Mr. Lobb.

In your opinion, should this decision be made based on science, or should we be considering political pressure?

[Dr. Hazel Lynn]

We have three things. We have the science, and it is fairly clear to me as a scientist that this is safe. There is the political involvement, and there is also the personal involvement. People in my area are used to having nuclear power. We're used to having it transported. We're comfortable with it, but most people are not, so we need to understand that and be able to explain it safely and clearly to them. That could have been done better, probably, over the whole range of this project.

The political system of whether or not we want nuclear power or other power and who looks after it and how they look after it is completely out of my jurisdiction, and it sounds to me, from hearing these proceedings, as though probably some work needs to be done on that.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

I'll now turn it over to Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you.

My question is for the warden of Bruce County, Warden Smith.

I read through the document from the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative and in it I see several times that they want consultation. They are concerned about being consulted. In the riding of Huron—Bruce, at least eight mayors along the west side of Lake Huron would be associated.

Do you support the content of this document, and were you consulted, or was anybody else on Bruce County Council consulted about the contents of this document?

[Mike Smith]

From the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Cities Initiative, no, we were not.

I first became aware that they were getting involved.... I think it was sometime in August that the chair sent a letter to Mr. Binder saying he had some concerns. At that time, I got hold of...I believe it was David. I wrote a letter to the chair saying that we had some information we could provide, that this was important to our community, and that we wanted an opportunity to comment on it. I didn't get that.

We then came up to the hearing on September 23 and intervened. Then we had lunch with David and Sarah Rang. Again, Mitch and I talked to him about it. I asked for another opportunity, and I was included in a teleconference with three members of the board for 15 minutes.

There was a second filing on November 22, and I specifically asked David if I could see that filing and comment on it before he filed it with the CNSC. I got a copy of the filing 10 minutes after the filing date.

So, no, we were not consulted.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's unfortunate. I'll turn my time to Mr. Dykstra.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Mr. Ullrich, I understand the principles behind your concern. I think all of us who are elected here, whether they are elected at the municipal level or at the provincial or federal level, are obviously going to have concerns about the transportation here.

One of the things that the Great Lakes mayors were concerned about is being excluded from this process. What do you say to Mr. Smith? The very thing that you're here to complain about today is the very thing that you've done to someone in your own organization.

[David Ullrich]

What I said to Warden Smith, and I will say again today, is that I apologize for whatever consultation we did not provide. We did provide, very unusually, an opportunity for Warden Smith and Mayor Bradley to participate in one of our board of directors' calls. Warden Smith is correct that there were only three board members present, but very frequently the board members send their representatives.

We tried to have consultation. We are spread out from Thunder Bay and Duluth to Rimouski and Sept-Îles. To be able to consult on all of these matters.... It arose very quickly. We hadn't been informed of this until late July or early August. We had to make decisions in early September as to filing our comments.

As with many organizations, we have 16 mayors who are members of our board of directors, even if they are not all on a call at one time, they were included.

I have apologized to Warden Smith, and I am sorry that we did not have more consultation.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Do you find it ironic that the community that's impacted the most was excluded from the—

[David Ullrich]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that they were impacted the most, because the exposures are really occurring in the shipment. It appears that a policy decision has been made here as well as in the U.S. that the most secure place to keep it is on site.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

There's no policy decision that's been made here. I'm sure you're referring to the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Dykstra, your time is up.

Go ahead, Mr. Cullen, on a point of order.

[Nathan Cullen, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Dr. Lynn, you talked about having submitted this risk assessment to the committee. I was checking with staff, and we have no transmission of that, so maybe you could email it again. We would very much appreciate getting that document.

[Dr. Hazel Lynn]

Okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Go ahead, Dr. Lynn. You indicated you had sent it. We're not certain whether we have it or not. The clerk will be in touch with you if he doesn't have a copy of that. It will be distributed to all members of the committee.

[Dr. Hazel Lynn]

It was sent some days ago under a freedom of information request.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

That wouldn't be to the committee here, then. The clerk will contact you to get a copy of that, Dr. Lynn. Thank you.

Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

We hear all kinds of things here and there. I'd like your association to submit to us the documents you relied on in making such and such a decision. We want to know whether there is a policy problem, whether there is a grey area. To prepare our recommendations, we'll have to compare viewpoints. In my opinion, there have been some sad statements by the president of the commission, and if we want to rely on science and facts, I'd like to know how you reached a decision.

Give us documents and provide us with appraisals, as we always ask in any case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Do you have anything further to that, Mr. Tonks?