Evidence of meeting #9 for Natural Resources in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jeff Passmore  Past President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association
Lise Dubé  Agronomist, Club de gestion des sols du Témiscouata et Ferticonseil, Coopérative Forestière Haut Plan Vert
Valérie Patoine  Forest engineer, Coopérative Forestière Haut Plan Vert
Catherine Cobden  Vice-President, Economics and Regulatory Affairs, Forest Products Association of Canada
Daniel Sperling  Professor and Director, Institute of Transportation Studies, University of California, Davis, As an Individual
JoAnne Buth  President, Canola Council of Canada
Marie-Hélène Labrie  Vice-President, Government Affairs and Communications, Enerkem Inc.
Roger Samson  Executive Director, Resource Efficient Agricultural Production (REAP) Canada

9:50 a.m.

Bloc

Claude Guimond Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC

Three years later, what are your real needs? What do you need to be able, starting tomorrow, to carry out your project, and perhaps other projects, I hope, in the region, in Quebec and across Canada? As you mentioned, this is possible in all rural regions of Canada. So what are your real, specific needs? What must the government do to give you adequate support?

9:50 a.m.

Forest engineer, Coopérative Forestière Haut Plan Vert

Valérie Patoine

We need financial support for farmers enabling them to convert to green energies, to renewable energy crops. We also need financial support to permit the transfer of necessary knowledge to cultivate this renewable energy and financial support to establish a consumption, production and local sales system.

9:50 a.m.

Agronomist, Club de gestion des sols du Témiscouata et Ferticonseil, Coopérative Forestière Haut Plan Vert

Lise Dubé

We have to put in place all the links in this chain, production, processing and consumption. We need incentives enabling farmers to convert to these crops because they aren't eligible. They aren't like grains or hay. We know of no agricultural financial support program for these crops. They have to be encouraged to convert these land areas for processing purposes. Incentives for maple producers and pellet stoves would also enable this type of circuit to start up.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Guimond.

Mr. Atamanenko, do you have questions?

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Yes, I do.

9:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Go ahead, please, for up to seven minutes.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to all of you for having come here today.

Just a couple of quick questions, Madam Cobden, for you initially. I didn't quite understand what you meant by pyrolysis in the sawmill. Could you explain that?

You also mentioned that funds be technologically neutral. I didn't quite understand that.

Because what you were talking about was quite interesting, innovative, and exciting, I'm also wondering if you have examples in other parts of the world that you folks are using as you develop this new technology.

I'll stop there and then move on to some other questions.

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Economics and Regulatory Affairs, Forest Products Association of Canada

Catherine Cobden

Pyrolysis is simply one of the 27 technologies we studied. It is a type of technology—I think this is truly intriguing—that converts a solid wood product into a liquid fuel in under two seconds.

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Can I stop you there?

You could theoretically use a pine beetle-killed solid wood to do this?

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Economics and Regulatory Affairs, Forest Products Association of Canada

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Okay.

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Economics and Regulatory Affairs, Forest Products Association of Canada

Catherine Cobden

That's the technology. I presume we don't want to get into more of the why or wherefore of that.

Technology neutral means please do not identify technologies that a fund is going to cover and not cover. We looked at 27; there were tens more--I want to say 30 or 40 more--that also had lots of opportunity, but we couldn't assess them because we didn't have enough good solid data. Over time we will get good data and we'll see that those technologies may be quite valuable.

The idea is do not prescribe in a fund the types of technologies you will fund, but instead talk about the end product you're after. Does that help?

9:50 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Yes.

9:50 a.m.

Vice-President, Economics and Regulatory Affairs, Forest Products Association of Canada

Catherine Cobden

What have we done globally? The interesting thing, when we launched this project...I had not totally appreciated this, but we have had feedback from our colleagues internationally, and we continue to get asked to go around the world to articulate our findings, because no one else in the world has done this. This is a unique study that captures the economics and some environmental benefits of this opportunity with the forest industry, and even to our surprise, we had no idea of the leadership course we were charting in this globally. I'm heading to France next month and to China to talk about this, because people have not yet done their homework. Again it goes back to our earlier point of having some advantages. We need to figure out how to grasp them.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Yes. Thank you.

For my next question, Mr. Passmore or maybe all of you could answer this. There have been studies in the United States and Europe by our Canadian government that have called into question not only the cost effectiveness of crop-based biofuels but also whether their net environmental impact is actually positive or negative. I understand it's been a boon in rural Canada as far as jobs are concerned. I don't think there is a question about that whatsoever, and I thank you for that.

In our biofuels act, in section 140, it calls for a comprehensive review of environmental and economic aspects of biofuel production a year after this act was enacted and every two years after that. I am wondering if you believe that's a good idea and what your comments are on that.

There was an article in The Vancouver Sun that questioned the cost side of biofuels. I don't think I need to quote from it because your president has refuted it in his article. Also, in your presentation, Mr. Passmore, you mentioned a study done by an independent company that had very good results with regard to greenhouse gases, 63%, and 99% for biodiesel. As we move into this cycle and the whole biofuels area and we're looking at secondary development, should we be doing a comprehensive review? I would like your comments on that.

9:55 a.m.

Past President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association

Jeff Passmore

First of all, with respect to the environmental benefits of first-generation or grain-based ethanol, let's just say that especially if you're looking at Canadian plants...there may be some U.S. midwest plants that are getting their power to run their facilities from coal, and therefore their greenhouse gas emission reductions are probably modest, but in the Canadian case, where you're talking about natural gas-fired green ethanol plants, you're looking at greenhouse gas emission reductions north of 40%, compared to gasoline. That's the Canadian picture.

With respect to the cost-benefit analysis study that was done, it's important to remember that this is a draft, and as you saw, we had an article refuting some of the facts and figures, but basically it looked primarily at the cost and didn't really look at the benefit side. It had some flaws in it that we intend to address with Environment Canada, such as the $58-a-barrel long-term price for oil and failure to take into account the $2.8 billion of new investment from the renewable sector in the jobs that have been created. It also gave a price for ethanol that was the opposite of what is actually happening, which is that gasoline has been more expensive than ethanol over the last three years, and it had assumed the reverse.

Obviously, we'll be responding to that study, and hopefully once it's past the draft stage and into its final form, it will be assessing some of the benefits rather than just the cost.

As to a comprehensive review, we welcome that. We think that would be a great step in the process.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Thank you.

Are there any other comments?

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Any other comments will have to be very brief because your time is almost up.

9:55 a.m.

NDP

Alex Atamanenko NDP British Columbia Southern Interior, BC

Thank you.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Is there any short comment?

Ms. Dubé.

9:55 a.m.

Agronomist, Club de gestion des sols du Témiscouata et Ferticonseil, Coopérative Forestière Haut Plan Vert

Lise Dubé

On that subject, I'd like to mention that these are perennial crops, crops that require few inputs. This is very promising from an environmental standpoint. The perennial crop, switch grass, grows on its own. It will be planted there for 10 years or more. This is very positive environmentally. One tonne of switch grass can remove up to 22 kilos of CO2. Since it uses few inputs and controls soil erosion, it is a highly accepted crop from a social standpoint.

9:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Merci, and thank you, Mr. Atamanenko.

We will go now to the government side, to Ms. Gallant, for seven minutes. That will end the questioning and comments on this panel, and then we will go to our second panel.

Go ahead, Ms. Gallant.

April 20th, 2010 / 9:55 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It's good to hear that we are catching up with the United States. We had a long way to go when we first took over government. It's also encouraging to hear that the government's commitment to investment in biofuels has been effective in encouraging the renewable fuels in Canada.

Does Canada have enough domestic supply to meet its mandate of having, in gasoline, an annual average renewable content of 5%? Just yes or no is good.

10 a.m.

Past President, Canadian Renewable Fuels Association

10 a.m.

Conservative

Cheryl Gallant Conservative Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Is that yes across the board? Okay.

How close is the industry to converting wood to either diesel or ethanol? Are we at the production phase yet, or are we still in research?