Natural Resources Committee on Nov. 16th, 2011

[Donna Kirkwood]

It incorporated information that was available on all of Canada.

[Dr. Brian Gray]

Okay.

So it was the information available, not where it was necessarily economically feasible--just as our geological maps are not where it's economically feasible; it's just “Here's the geological information.”

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

We've heard a lot from the mining industry about how they're looking for alternative power sources. They use diesel at the moment and a bunch of other generators.

Would you say this would be in the early phases, and it's perhaps something that the industry could...? You know, do they ever take advantage of that? Do you have any enquiries from companies in terms of trying to harness those resources, the geothermal in particular?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

That really isn't in my domain, the science sector. My colleague Anil Arora, in the metals and minerals sector, deals directly with the mining companies, mining associations, in, for example, the green mining program.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So you don't currently do the other stuff--solar and wind and tidal--but what types of technologies would be needed to do that? Would that be something your department could expand into? Is that something we could consider investing in as a government?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

Well, taken bit by bit, the wind side, no; I would see the Meteorological Service of Canada as having the expertise on wind information in general. The solar side would probably be our energy sector, as well as the geothermal. The economic uptake side or feasibility would be the energy sector.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

These sources of information seem a bit disparate. Would that be something that NRCan could do to aggregate that information and put it into one spot, to put it into a giant mapping program like you've got here, which could show not only minerals but also those other resources? Is that something you could feasibly see your department doing?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

I think those questions would be best posed to my colleagues in the energy sector or to my deputy.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay. Right: so if we're going to take one area to move into, perhaps, not all of them--you mentioned geothermal—are there any other possible energy sources that you could see this technology identifying and, again, reducing the risk for companies interested in investing?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

I can speak on the tidal, for example. We are engaged in what's called geohazard research. We are, on the east coast, for example, and the west coast, where companies or provinces are interested in developing tidal energy. Essentially you have generators underwater, sitting either on the bottom of the ocean or suspended in a manner where you're reliant on the substrate. We do research in the risks associated with where you place these things. We're developing geohazard maps on the bottom of the oceans.

The main things you have to worry about there are underwater landslides that may or may not be related to an earthquake. You have to worry about sediment loading in water moving underneath.

So from an industry support standpoint, we do that, and that helps in traditional energy development but also in potential new energy development.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay.

That information could actually be used in combination with, say, information from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to give companies a sense of where perhaps they could locate these generators, not only geologically but tidally.

Would that be something on which you might advise the company that was interested in investing in...?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

Our energy sector might be involved in where best to situate it from a tidal-power standpoint. I frankly don't know. But where we would be engaged as a sector would be that if you decide that this is the best possible place to put it because of the current and the maximal use of available natural energy, we'd be the ones, the Geological Survey, who would look at whether it would be a safe place to put it--i.e., would it be something that would exist for 10 or 20 years, or whether there'd be a likelihood of some sort of geological failure that would create a loss of this huge investment.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

That information is available for free?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

The geohazard? Yes, we create geohazard maps, so as soon as we are ready, that information is published.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

Mr. McGuinty, you have up to seven minutes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, folks.

Dr. Gray, the last time you were here, on October 19, I asked you whether you had seen or had a plan, or were working from a climate change plan in terms of your good work on climate change and the climate change impacts and adaptation directorate.

You talked a little bit about the research that was going on, but you were very open in your answer in saying that you don't have a plan, you've never seen the plan, and you're not working from a plan. I want to pick up on that answer.

You did say, however, that your climate change impacts and adaptation directorate is working on things like permafrost, ocean activity, shorelines, and future development.

[Dr. Brian Gray]

In conjunction with the Geological Survey of Canada, yes.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Absolutely.

First, can I get sense of how much money the earth sciences sector of NRCan manages? How much do you manage as the ADM for this sector every year, roughly?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

It's a bit of a moving target, but in general terms, this fiscal year, Mr. McGuinty, it's about $180 million.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Of the $180 million, how much is being spent on the climate change impacts and adaptation directorate?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

Off the top of my head, I can't tell you, but it would be in the neighbourhood of $5 million.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

About $5 million.

To your knowledge, is there another climate change impacts and adaptation initiative government-wide that's investing at the same time as you are in trying to figure out what's happening in that context for Canada? And this is for Canada, right? It's not only for northern Canada but Canada-wide.

So it's a $5-million budget to prepare Canadians for the impacts and how to adapt to climate change nationwide, is that right?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

Yes, $5 million to $7 million.

Again, I'd be happy, Mr. Chair, to circle back with the actual facts on that. I didn't bring them, so it's top-of-head.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

No problem.

If it's $5 million to $7 million out of $180 million, it's maybe 2% or 3%. I'll come back to you on that in a second, if I have to, but I want to go back to your comments about how this is affecting permafrost, ocean activity, shorelines, and future development.

A couple of times I've been asked to stop asking questions about climate change and its relationship to this northern Canadian development study, which I won't do, because I'm not sure how one would do that.

I'm really pleased today to see my Conservative colleague Mr. Allen ask questions that talk about the overlay that I'm trying to get at here--namely, how do we deal with this wonderful opportunity in northern Canada's development potential while we're struggling with what I only can conclude is an invisible climate change plan for the country?

Can you tell us, and Canadians who are listening or reading or watching at some point in the future, what is happening right now? In brief, from your research, your $5 million to $7 million research, what's going on with our ocean activity right now in terms of climate change? What's going on with our shorelines? What's going on with permafrost?

You can freelance on this, Dr. Gray. You've a long background, I understand, in biodiversity and biological subjects.

What's going on, for example, with belugas and polar bears and habitat? What are we seeing?

[Dr. Brian Gray]

Mr. Chair, I thought I was here today to talk about the earth science sector's programs.

I'm no longer an official responsible for those areas, Mr. McGuinty--the biodiversity, for example.

I'll take the direction of the chair on this.