Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[Robert Sopuck, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Marquette, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Sopuck.

Just before we go to our next questioner, I want to thank Dr. Kasperski, the manager of water management for the Devon Research Centre, for answering questions. I hadn't properly identified her.

Please go ahead, Ms. Liu.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good afternoon. I would like to thank everyone for coming here.

According to the Natural Resources Canada Strategy for science and technology, the department has a staff of 3,000 employees supporting scientific and technological activities.

How many research and development employees at Natural Resources Canada work in the energy sector, in particular?

[Martin Aubé]

These employees work primarily in the CanmetENERGY laboratories. Approximately 450 employees work in our three laboratories, namely in the one located in Ottawa, the one in Varennes, situated across from Montreal, in the South Shore region, and the one in Devon, Alberta. In addition, fifty or so people work in program management. We therefore have approximately 500 individuals working in the scientific field.

[Marc D'Iorio]

In addition to these employees, we have people working at the Geological Survey of Canada, especially in the area of geological formations, in the energy sector. The survey has a staff of approximately 500 employees, with about 10% working on energy-related questions in the laboratories located in Calgary and Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.

[Martin Aubé]

We also have many employees at Forestry Canada who work in the bioenergy sector. Some of our researchers in Hamilton are working on materials in energy-related fields, such as transportation or pipelines.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So we have more than 500 employees.

[Martin Aubé]

Yes. Approximately 500 employees are working in the energy field, but a hundred or so are working outside of this field.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

According to the 2012 budget, cuts to the tune of $68 million will be made to Natural Resources Canada for the fiscal year 2012-2013. We know that a further $85 million will be cut the following year.

According to the Public Service Alliance of Canada, some 200 unionized jobs will be eliminated. The Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada estimates that 156 professional and scientific positions in Natural Resources Canada will be affected by these federal budget cutbacks.

In all, how many professionals working in your branch to support energy innovation will be transferred or laid off?

[Martin Aubé]

Unfortunately, I do not have this information.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Would it be possible to obtain this information and send it to the committee?

[Martin Aubé]

We will find out whether or not this information is available and can be made public.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are you aware of the impact of these cutbacks? Are there any projects that you will have to abandon?

[Marc D'Iorio]

We review our research and development priorities on a regular basis. That does not always fit in to this type of exercise. Over the years, we are always changing the research and development areas on which we want to focus.

We have started working in areas which we did not cover a dozen years ago, such as carbon capture and storage. Over the past five years, we have reduced our investments in certain sectors that used to be given higher priority, such as hydrogen. It all depends on the way technologies evolve. It also depends on emerging priorities or on economical or environmental opportunities that occur, depending on the type of research that we are conducting.

So we do many things with the resources we have been allocated. We set priorities with respect to the research undertaken and funded by the department, basically.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

In setting your priorities, have you started to determine which sectors will be affected next year by the forecast $85-million cutback? We know that there will be a $107-million reduction the following year. Do you have any idea which sectors will be affected?

[Martin Aubé]

We do not have this information. As Mr. D'Iorio said, we review priorities on a regular basis, and not in conjunction with budget cutbacks.

If we obtain this information, we will submit it to the committee clerk.

[Laurin Liu, NDP, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

My last question is related to page 9 of your presentation. Earlier this week, I was reading a Senate report published in July 2012 that stated that, in 2010, the non-renewable fuel industry received the largest proportion of public R&D subsidies. The results of this study were based on the data provided by Canada to the International Energy Agency, and show that about three out of four dollars invested by the federal government went to R&D for non-renewable energy sources. I know that this definitely does not correspond to the table you presented on page 9.

However, I believe the information in the Senate report included carbon capture and storage in the fossil fuels category. Are the numbers closer to what is actually happening if we include R&D investments for fossil fuels in carbon capture funding?

[Marc D'Iorio]

For 2010, the numbers do not seem to match. In fact, according to the numbers published in the report by the National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy, in 2010, 21% of the funding was spent on fossil fuels and 17% on carbon capture and storage. Even added together, these numbers do not correspond with the data showing that three-quarters of the money is allocated to this type of energy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Liu.

We'll go now to Monsieur Galipeau, and if there's time left, Mr. Anderson will use it.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Galipeau.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank the witnesses for their testimony today.

For the edification of Mr. Julian, he may wish to look at the briefing binder on his desk provided by the Department of Natural Resources. The answers to his questions are on pages 63 and 64.

Mr. D'Iorio, what would you say in response to the accusations that the non-renewable energy sector is not innovative enough and that those involved in the sector are acting like hewers of wood and drawers of water?

[Marc D'Iorio]

According to what I can see from the data Statistics Canada has collected for the International Energy Agency, the private sector invests more in energy than the federal and provincial governments combined.

Again, without saying anything about the various accusations, we can simply look at the facts and see that the industry is spending a lot of money in this sector, compared with some other science and technology sectors, in order to achieve its goals. It is trying to have energy production accepted in Canada.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

I think Mr. Aubé would like to add something.

[Martin Aubé]

Yes, I would like to give an example. Canada's oil sands producers have created a new alliance, COSIA, which focuses on R&D co-operation in finding solutions to environmental problems related to oil sands mining. There are many examples of very positive things being done right now within the industry.

[Royal Galipeau, Conservative, Ottawa—Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will give my time to my colleague, Mr. Anderson.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Anderson, you have about three minutes. Go ahead, please.