Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 25th, 2012

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to contrast the NDP's half-empty glass approach here.

I want to ask you where, as you're working in your job, you see the brightest lights in energy innovation today.

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

There are quite a few examples. I think we did mention them already a few times on this issue of how industry can actually work together. For the energy industry to work together and put aside and figure a way to deal with IP in a fairly competitive area is really significant. From the point of view of system of innovation, that to me is quite the significant piece.

We've seen universities and network centres of excellence being able to progress and become better at addressing key issues and at targeting the research to address the issues that are of importance, from the basic research piece all the way to business-led network centres of excellence. I think the system piece is a good example of some of the bright lights.

I believe there have been a number of successes that we've had on clean energy as well. Some of the work done within NRCan has led to internationally acclaimed projects,such as Drake Landing in south Calgary, where solar energy is used and stored and then fed to an entire community. This type of development, as one example of many, has been one of the real bright lights in innovation that has led to adoption and commercialization.

[Martin Aubé]

On international collaboration, I would add that the clean energy dialogue or some of the programs put in place by foreign affairs to promote science technology collaboration between ourselves and China or ourselves and India are all also bright lights.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

If I asked that same question in the future context, would you give the same answer? Do you see other areas in the future, five or 10 years down the road, or would it be pretty much the same answer that you've given for the present?

[Martin Aubé]

I think so. The technologies may change, but I think the way we do things and driving the partnerships deeper and stronger among business, government, and universities is the way to go.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Where on the supply side do you see the strongest commitment to innovation? Dealing with the supply side right now, you've talked about the collaboration. Is that where you would say it was strongest, or do you see sectors that are much more strongly committed to innovation than others?

You mentioned the oil sands and the groups gathering together to try to find new technologies, but are there other places that stand out where you would see a strong commitment on the supply side to innovation for the future?

[Martin Aubé]

I think I'm going to go back to my example earlier of clean tech, which includes renewable energy and bioenergy companies. These companies are noticing that innovation and developing new technologies and accessing new markets is the only way for survival, especially for Canadian companies with a very small domestic market. Investing nearly 11% of their revenues into R and D is a significant feat, if you want, because I think most companies—I don't know the number offhand—do not invest that much into their R and D. As an industry, it's quite significant.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson.

We go now to Monsieur Choquette, for up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses.

My first question is about the ecoENERGY program, which has come under heavy criticism. It has been called a disguised subsidy for oil companies instead of a subsidy for renewable energy projects.

My question is very simple: what percentage of the funds from the ecoENERGY program were allocated to fossil fuel businesses?

[Marc D'Iorio]

I don't have the numbers here—

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

I will stop you right now because I have a lot of questions but very little time.

I would like you to send this information to the committee through the chair.

[Marc D'Iorio]

I just want to add that most of the investments do not go towards fossil fuels.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

It would be interesting to know the percentage, because a general term like "the vast majority" or "the narrow majority", is not—

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

It is less than 10%. In any case, we could provide you with the exact figure.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much.

We would also like to know how much money or what percentage of the funds were invested in carbon storage.

[Marc D'Iorio]

Are you talking about the federal government?

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

Of course.

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

More than $500 million are being directed at carbon storage. This includes the development of technologies for the capture and study of watersheds where carbon storage could be achieved. This also includes large-scale demonstration projects, particularly Shell's Quest project, which we were discussing a few minutes ago.

There are also factors that involve international cooperation, particularly with the United States, but also through certain international mechanisms. The goal here is to move research forward. We have invested a great deal in research to ensure the monitoring of carbon dioxide storage sites, in the Weyburn-Midale region, where almost 20 megatonnes have already been permanently stored in old oil and gas reservoirs.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

In my humble opinion, this initiative is moving too quickly. In fact, we seriously criticize carbon storage for environmental reasons. We particularly fear this causing small earthquakes.

Before further expanding on this carbon storage initiative, have you done any research to see if this technology is mature?

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

The first pilot projects started a dozen years ago and those in Weyburn-Midale began in 2000. At that time we did a number of things. In particular, we took the basic steps before filling the reservoirs with CO₂. We wanted to be certain that we understood the physical soil parameters, for example the acidity, before even adding the CO₂. There were also seismic programs to check if the CO₂ stayed in place and did not move outside the targeted area.

Programs are ongoing, through which we seek to ensure that there are no long-term consequences linked to seismicity or to potential leaks.

[François Choquette, NDP, Drummond, QC]

The National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy is an organization that will cease to exist, unfortunately, because of federal cutbacks. It is unfortunate because it was totally independent and allowed for an exchange of views between the economy and the environment. Recently, it produced a final report entitled "Framing the Future: Embracing the Low-Carbon Economy". Unfortunately, since 2008, the Conservative government has not had the courage to put a price on carbon.

The National Round Table on the Environment and the Economy therefore tells us that the longer we wait, the more costly it will be for future generations. People say that putting a price on carbon now will be expensive for the Canadian people, but that is not true. In fact, the longer we wait, the more future generations will pay the bill, which is never mentioned enough.

Did you take this report into account when creating innovation programs? Were the recommendations that were made submitted to you? Have you had time to study them?

[Dr. Marc D'Iorio]

I believe the report was published last week.

As far as the policies on carbon pricing or mechanisms to give carbon a value are concerned, that is a political and not a technological issue. What is clearly a technological aspect is that we can really see things over the long term and do projections for the next 20 to 50 years. The carbon capture and storage projects, for example, can be deployed on a very large scale.

We therefore want to ensure that we are ready to deploy such projects on a major scale and that we understand the parameters well, within the context of seeking to minimize greenhouse gases.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Choquette.

Mr. Anderson, you have up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Just as an observation, Mr. Chair, it's interesting that the NDP are denying their own election platform in the House, but I'm glad to hear Mr. Choquette so enthusiastically embrace it. It's good to see.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!