Evidence of meeting #64 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was nuclear.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you very much, Mr. Julian.
We go now to Mr. Hsu for up to seven minutes.
Go ahead, please, sir.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Thank you very much.
Thanks for coming to the committee today.
I want to stay with the north of 60 mines. We have 70% of site visits that haven't been conducted, and we have other uncertainties. Is it fair to say that we don't know at all whether the final cost of reclaiming all of the mines is covered by the deposits, the securities, that the government has on hand? Is that a fair statement?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think that's the crux of the matter.
As to why the inspections are important, it's to make sure that the actual operations reflect what was in the permit or in the authorization. One example would be that if they're authorized for only one tailings pond, and during the course of the operation there become two tailings ponds, that would then affect the cost of site remediation at the end.
So we've said that those inspections...or we haven't said, the department has said, that those inspections are required by regulation in order to do a reality check on the ground.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Okay.
With regard to natural gas hydraulic fracturing, what do you think the standing committees in Parliament—the environment committee, let's say, or this committee—should be doing to help the government know whether or not Canadians are adequately protected from natural gas hydraulic fracturing?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I'll ask my colleague Mr. Ferguson to answer. I mean, we wouldn't delve into policy prescriptions, but....
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
No, it's just what you think Parliament should do. For example, should this committee call witnesses on...?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think it might be useful to.... There's a report, for example, coming out from Resources for the Future, which is a very respected U.S.-based group. That report is coming out in two days, I believe. If hydraulic fracturing is an issue of interest to this committee, they've gone through—we've seen an advance draft—a very rigorous analysis of risk.
For example, there's wide assumption that there are risks of groundwater contamination. Their conclusion was that it's probably a very low risk.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Are those conclusions relevant to the Canadian geology?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
To some extent, yes, but I think what is important is that geology in Canada is different from geology in Florida, for example. It is important then to say....
I mean, I can tell you what we concluded, that right now there is very little information that either Environment Canada has or Health Canada has about the chemicals being used daily in these hydraulic fracturing wells.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Okay.
You've covered a lot of the gaps between your recommendations and what the government has done so far. I'm wondering, amongst all of your recommendations, are there ones that are particularly timely or urgent that should be dealt with first, and quickly? If there a couple of things you would want to tell the government that they should get on right away, what would those be?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We don't prioritize, but I would say, as I mentioned earlier, that one area the government clearly is taking extremely seriously is the issue of marine safety. We saw the announcements last week from Minister Kent, and the announcement of Transport Canada this morning, I believe, or yesterday. I think the government realizes that the probability of an accident happening is very low, but if something does happen, the costs are extremely high. It's critical that you get this right.
In that one, given the problems, the gaps, the confusion we found, I think you need to go in and take some measures quite quickly, particularly since there are new exploratory operations in Hibernia and Hebron, and expected in Old Harry. Nova Scotia is going to be ramping up to petroleum exploitation in about three years.
So this is an area that is very dynamic, and it's important to get this right.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Okay.
The next question, kind of politics aside, is with regard to nuclear energy power generation. The liability limits haven't changed in 35 years, and it's a little bit surprising.
But then I thought about it, and I was wondering if part of the reason for that was because Bruce Power has only existed since 2001, and previous to that all of the ownership was public.
Is that part of the reason why there wasn't any urgency, and perhaps why the urgency has only emerged in the last ten years or so?
3:50 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I don't think there was the question of ownership, although I'll defer to Mr. Sloan on that.
This would be again a reason for an official to come in and explain to you...because I don't think the ownership issue would be germane to the absolute liability limit imposed by the federal government. You know, Point Lepreau in New Brunswick has been operating for many years.
I may be wrong in this, but I think the ownership issue would be distinct from the absolute liability limit that would be imposed.
3:55 p.m.
Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
During the work we did for the audit, the ownership issue didn't come up. Their issues, when the limits were originally set, were more about what the costs would be for remediation or for addressing the issue should something occur. So it's more about just cost relative to risk.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Paragraph 1.14 in chapter 1 mentions that there was a request that the Auditor General of Canada conduct a performance audit of the offshore petroleum boards. I am wondering how out of date—when was the last time there was an audit? Is there something out of date that needs to be brought up to date?
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Actually, they've never had an audit in the way we go through and do one in the Auditor General's office. When we began this, we approached the government and said we needed an order in council to clarify the Auditor General's mandate, because it's a federal-provincial agreement, and we're grateful to the government for steering through that order in council. But before that, you know, in the 20 years since the Atlantic Accord, there had not been an audit of either board to the extent to which we've gone in and looked at all their systems.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
For these boards you looked at the competencies and the collective competencies and experience of the board members. Do you think the skill set of the current composition of the boards is complete?
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I'll ask my colleague Ms. Leach to....
February 5th, 2013 / 3:55 p.m.
Kimberley Leach Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Sure. We looked at the collective competencies of the board in terms of whether they had the competencies to conduct the work that was required and whether they were fully staffed with members always in place. We found that in the case of both boards they don't always have a full complement of members continually in place with all of the desired competencies.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Ted Hsu Liberal Kingston and the Islands, ON
Are there a couple of areas that are lacking that you might want to mention so that when the next appointment is made they will be covered?
3:55 p.m.
Principal, Sustainable Development Strategies, Audits and Studies, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes. Natural Resources Canada does a competency assessment before they appoint an additional member. The competencies they look at include regulatory competencies, energy sector, experience in environment, geology, fisheries, safety, and environmental leadership. Those are the competencies they looked at for this board, and we found that they weren't always there.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you very much, Mr. Hsu.
We go now to the five-minute round, starting with Ms. Rempel, parliamentary secretary to the Minister of the Environment.
Go ahead please, Ms. Rempel.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd also like to add my voice in congratulating the commissioner on his body of work and thank him for his report today as well.
I want to start with nuclear liability legislation. First of all, were you aware that legislation has been in front of the House in previous sessions of Parliament to address this issue?
3:55 p.m.
Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think we acknowledged that in the report.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Centre-North, AB
Great. I believe that in these bills there was something to the effect of moving our liability limit from $75 million to approximately $625 million. Would that put us more in line with other countries internationally or move us in the right direction anyway?