Evidence of meeting #66 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was innovation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Leef.
We'll go now to Mr. Gravelle for up to five minutes.
5 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions are going to be for Mr. Heintzman. First, though, my colleague Mrs. Crockatt, I believe, mentioned that turning off the lights and insulating a house are good ways to reduce carbon footprints. Maybe she can talk to the Prime Minister and bring back the ecoENERGY program. It certainly would benefit Canadians from coast to coast to coast.
My question for you, Mr. Heintzman, is on biomethane. If the federal government, the provincial governments, and the municipal governments were to get behind the production of biomethane gas from all of the municipal dumps from coast to coast to coast, how much natural gas or methane would that produce, and how much money would that save?
5 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
I don't know the figure for Canada, but in the U.K., their National Grid, which is their gas utility, has estimated that biomethane could account for approximately, I believe, 40% of residential natural gas demand in the United Kingdom. One would expect it's a similar proportion in Canada. In terms of the dollars involved, it would take me some work to figure that out.
5 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Could you figure that out and send it to the committee? Is that possible?
5 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
Sure, I'd be happy to do a back-of-an-envelope calculation.
5 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
You said that if we compare it to the U.K., there is about 40% methane gas. In Canada, we don't know what that is. But if we were to start developing biodiesel, it would save a lot of money. I know there's an upfront cost to build the plants, but at the end of the day, are there some substantial savings for the consumer?
5 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
Not as the economics are currently configured. First of all, this is biomethane, which is different from biodiesel, just as a point of clarification. Currently, biomethane is more expensive than conventional natural gas. If, however, we start taking account of the environmental impact and that's priced in, whether through a carbon tax or some other form, then they start getting more cost competitive. But currently it is a premium product and is more expensive.
5 p.m.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
In your statement, you said some consumers were willing to pay a little bit more for green energy. Are there some savings for the province, for municipalities, and for individuals if they go to green energy? If you pay that extra $1 on your bill, are there extra savings down the road?
5:05 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
There are no savings for the person who actually pays the bill, but there are savings to society as a whole in increasing the amount of renewable power, and therefore there are fewer hospitalizations, fewer adverse health effects, a more diversified electricity mix, less dependence on fossil fuels. There are a number of societal benefits, but no, it doesn't save the individuals paying the bill any money.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
Yes, and it's building an economy in the country, it's diversifying a portfolio.... I could give you a long list of benefits from it.
5:05 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
Absolutely. I fundamentally believe that a clean economy will be one of the big economic drivers globally over the next two decades. It's just a question of how much of that Canada is able to benefit from.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Co-founder and Director, Bullfrog Power
There have been a number of studies. I don't have that data at my fingertips either, but there was a study by a woman named Céline Bak, who says already the clean tech industry in Canada is approximately the size of the aerospace industry, and is growing much more rapidly. I could send you that information as well.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming today.
Mr. Howard, you mentioned this 60% loss of development. Do you have any numbers on that? Did you have numbers on what that 60% figure worked out to be, or is that contained in your report that we could perhaps look at later?
I'm wondering what the scope is of that missed opportunity.
5:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Research Institute
It's contained in the report. It is a volume or a daily production level. We are currently sitting at—if you add conventional in—about 2.8 million barrels per day. With all the projects that have been announced and all the conventional drilling that is deemed to go forward, we will peak out between 5.5 million and 6 million barrels per day. That's kind of where that number comes from.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Research Institute
In a dollar sense? I could multiply it out and send it to you, but I don't have it.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
It would probably be as big as our differential pricing, I would think. Do you think so—or more?
5:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Research Institute
In a GDP sense, it would be well into the trillions of dollars.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you.
You mentioned a little bit earlier that if things didn't turn out well, there might be some opportunity for refining and moving product offshore.
We did a study on refining and pipelines, and what we heard was a bit contrary to what you said, which is that our refineries are not operating at capacity. Typically now, countries or markets want the refining done locally because that final product is often tailored to the local situation.
Do you have any comment on that? Are you suggesting we would need to look at refining to try to find some opportunity, or that you actually think that would work? The testimony we had previously would kind of indicate that that would be a problem, not a real opportunity.
5:05 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Energy Research Institute
Asia is going to be an interesting situation. From the information I have, they would like to get the crude because they want to refine it and get the jobs.
If you're looking at Europe as an example, Europe's refining is geared towards the diesel side of the spectrum because that's where...sorry, I have that wrong. Their refining is geared towards the gasoline side of the spectrum, but their demand, their fleet, is on the diesel side of the spectrum. The net result is they are exporting gasoline to North America. North America is exporting diesel to Europe, to get that all balanced.
If we actually manage to get a pipeline to the east coast, products above the demand within that area could actually go to Europe. It could compete in that market. It could compete because it's buying crude at a differential out of Alberta, and the transportation cost makes it below the brand price, so it can enter that market quite easily.