Evidence of meeting #70 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sector.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Hsu.
We go now to Mr. Leef, for up to five minutes.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all of our witnesses today.
Ms. Cobden, you noted that identifying the right portfolio mix is the question. I assume you may have meant within the industry. We heard in previous testimony that the indication for innovation support was to support everybody and then let the market decide.
The question I have, and I'm going to get everybody to comment quickly on this, is how, when our market is only so big, we can put so many options on the table and then have the market decide. Does it make sense from a government perspective to focus policy, regulations, and investment on maybe the best or the most attainable innovation or industry to deliver its product to the consumer?
I'm the member of Parliament for Yukon. I see small communities that have geothermal, biomass, are looking at wind technology, hydroelectric... They're exploring all these things. There are lots of proposals and lots of ideas, and it seems there's a perpetual state of exploration, but nothing really moving forward, no concrete investment in it, because the options are too diverse and the market too small.
Maybe I'll get you to comment on what we could do to resolve that and on where you see things going.
4:25 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Forest Products Association of Canada
From FPAC's perspective, we wouldn't say to let the market decide; what we would say is to let economics prevail.
A perfect example of that is that if you had a fund dedicated to biofuel generation and you allowed only biofuel generation, the forest industry would never be able to make it economically viable to generate it. Here is a perfect example: in bio-pathways we looked at five different platforms to produce ethanol from wood. Not a single one of them was economic without huge subsidies, which I don't think we want.
I'm actually not saying to let markets drive it, because markets are quite a bit removed from this decision-making process. It's let the economics.... Let the companies not be hamstrung by force-feeding a particular technology or product that they need to head to. They're strong business people. They can analyze the economics and identify what makes the most sense for their company. If they're forced to squish into a box, it could be problematic for them.
4:30 p.m.
Acting Executive Director, National Aboriginal Forestry Association
It's a fascinating question, and I appreciate Ms. Cobden's answer. I too share the belief that the economics have to support it.
In the case of aboriginal communities, however, I think there's a role in accessing the actual idea, and in the actual technology as it is proven coming out the gate.
I go back to the Oujé-Bougamou example. That was a regional heating option that was put on the plate 20 years ago, and it hasn't been followed up on. The aboriginal regional heating policy piece has been in various government documents from that time, but the budget going into supporting it has not been there.
This is where we see a critical gap for the aboriginal forest sector. What you would have with the aboriginal forest sector and aboriginal communities is a real democratizing of the technology, not so much on the large pulp and paper green transformation front, but on the microsizing of this technology to make it work for communities in the rural context. There's a little creativity and some room there.
This is what I would ask members of the committee to think about. Those areas have been in government policy, but they have not been supported to the same degree.
I think what you'll find is that the messenger matters in this. It should be first nations trade associations, which are made up of the business community and which actually have an interface with the decision-makers in the communities, so that there's a separation of business so that the economics can win out. That's the magic mix we're locating on and would advocate for.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
President, Canadian Federation of Apartment Associations
I'm sorry. I confess to having thought that the question wasn't overly applicable to me.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Your time is up, my friend.
Ms. Crockatt, go ahead. You can have the rest of Mr. Leef's time too.
4:30 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
March 5th, 2013 / 4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Thank you, Chair.
I'd just ask you to keep your answers fairly short if you can.
First, Ms. Cobden, you said that essentially your objective, and I think you're attaining it, is to extract more from every tree. How do you measure that? What's the best measurement benchmark that you've reached now?
4:30 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Forest Products Association of Canada
It's actually measured in a number of ways. Are we accessing new markets from yesterday? Are we basically solidifying our global competitive position in those new markets? Are we producing more value from the forests?
I've mentioned that we're a $57-billion industry today. I'm just looking straight, on straight value, and actually, a couple of years ago we were a $53-billion industry. As you've heard, we're aspiring to reach an additional $20 billion, which is based on two years ago, so that's a $74-billion industry.
One way to track it is, and this is publicly available information, what's our economic activity looking like in the sector over time? How is our competitive position in markets vis-à-vis...? We operate in a very competitive global marketplace. It's very interesting in the forest industry. We're very rurally based. We access the globe.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
Is that with the same amount of input, though? How do you show that you get more per tree? Are you cutting down more trees?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
In which case, increasing from four billion wouldn't maybe show that.
4:30 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Forest Products Association of Canada
Right. In fact, with the increase in set-asides, etc., we may be cutting less. I'll have to check, but for sure we are basing this on the residuals without cutting an additional extra tree.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
That might be something that I'd like follow-up information on: how do you measure it?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joan Crockatt Conservative Calgary Centre, AB
If you can't measure it, you can't manage it.
I want to say to all three of our witnesses that I really appreciate your being here. You're like a breath of fresh air: entrepreneurial, clear-thinking, and providing some real information on solutions.
Bradley, here's what one of the NDP members, Pat Martin, said a while ago at committee about forestry products: “If we were talking big picture, about a sustainable future, we wouldn't be talking about a better way to cut down more trees and build with material that begins to rot the moment you use it.”
In light of the comment you made a bit earlier when you said to beware of those who would protect the forest to death, I'm just wondering how you square those two things, especially with your aboriginal background as custodians of the environment.
4:35 p.m.
Acting Executive Director, National Aboriginal Forestry Association
Oh boy, that House of Commons, that question and answer period: people get riled right up, right? They've got to make the media clip.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative