Evidence of meeting #77 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was markets.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Burt  Director, Industrial Economic Trends, Conference Board of Canada
Christopher Smillie  Senior Advisor, Government Relations and Public Affairs, Building and Construction Trades Department, AFL-CIO
Kenneth Green  Senior Director, Energy and Natural Resources Studies, Fraser Institute
Toby Heaps  Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.

April 25th, 2013 / 5:05 p.m.

NDP

François Choquette NDP Drummond, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here today. We greatly appreciate it. I hope we will be able to make recommendations that will take into account the good things that have been mentioned.

I also want to quote the World Bank, an organization that spoke about climate change. It published a report entitled Turn Down the Heat, which reiterates the real urgency of taking action against climate change. The report indicates that, at the rate we are going, the earth is moving toward a climate that is 4oC warmer, which is much higher than the 2oC warmer that, if reached, would have alarming problems.

I know that some Conservatives think that climate change is no longer a concern. However, all the major organizations and scientists have clearly shown that the opposite is true.

I like the idea that the NDP is proposing a national energy strategy, among others, to diversify jobs. As Mr. Smilie explained, jobs in green energy are safer, since there is less variation in that kind of energy.

I don't have a lot of time, but I would like to ask Mr. Heaps what recommendations he would make. I am not a permanent member of this committee, but if the committee drafts a report, what concrete recommendations should be included with respect to market diversification in the energy sector and the fight against climate change?

I would like to hear three or four solid recommendations.

5:05 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.

Toby Heaps

Thank you kindly for the question.

You raised the important question of climate change. And if we want to make a dent in climate change where we can on this continent, there's one place to do it and one place only: it's not the oil sands. The oil sands is 50 million tonnes; it's not that much. U.S. coal right now is 2 billion tonnes. That's 20 times more than the oil sands.

We have vast storehouses of hydro potential, wind potential, and pump storage potential, and it's going to remain potential unless we can get a plan together and a vision to have infrastructure in place that will get that energy to the big customer in the U.S.

The U.S. will figure out its own energy security if we don't get our game together. The U.S. has not figured out its own energy security answer to where they're going to meet the retirement of the hundreds of thousands of megawatts of coal-fired generators over the next 6 to 10 years, which the national electricity reliability corporation is projecting. The U.S. currently doesn't have an answer to where their electricity is going to be coming from to keep the lights on for millions and millions of people. We can step into that gap if we come up with a solid plan that's backed up by guarantees for the capital costs for the private sector and the public sector that would be laying down the infrastructure. It could be a P3.

The former chairman of SNC-Lavalin—I know they're not in vogue these days—Jacques Lamarre, put forward a proposal that he thought would make sense if you had provinces as 50% owners in a national type of grid for bulk electricity exports, with the private sector and citizens as part owners. It's a publicly held company. There is a lot of potential for that kind of a structure.

In terms of concrete recommendations, the first thing is that the National Energy Board make a map and show what our clean electricity generation potential is from an engineering perspective, and show what the export value is for each province of clean electricity to the United States and within Canada, interjurisdictionally.

Number two, give loan guarantees to large capital projects that will enhance our transmission infrastructure.

Number three, come up with a plan with the National Energy Board to investigate and show how the massive hundreds of thousands of kilometres of pipeline corridors could be co-located with superconductive transmission lines. EPRI has done a lot of work on this. Germany and China are looking at this; Canada is not. It's a big potential. If we could use those corridors, the biggest barrier to building the infrastructure to get the electricity to market is NIMBYism. People don't like the giant rights-of-way.

With the new technology that exists with the superconductive electricity grids, you can fit these power lines, literally, within old pipelines. You only need a 25-foot right-of-way. It holds massive potential to investigate for the National Energy Board—a game changer.

One last recommendation is the potential to make the biggest storage battery in the world, by taking advantage of the pump storage potential of the Niagara region, where there's a 99-metre difference between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. It would have to happen with the Canadian government saying it's okay to change the water height in Lake Ontario by up to 29 centimetres. That's how much it would change. It already varies by up to 25 centimetres just through regular ebbs and flows. That's what would happen. But it would be a massive battery that could store all that wind blowing when people don't need it. And then you can sell it to the market when the market wants it and is hungry and will pay for it.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you.

Merci, Monsieur Choquette.

We go to Mr. Anderson. There are two five-minute slots, depending on whether we get bells at a quarter after or not.

Go ahead, please.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Smillie, you made a comment a little earlier about the need to incent people to travel to work. I'm just wondering if you could give us some suggestions as to how we might improve some of our programs, and I guess that includes EI, in order to create that.

We have an issue in my home province. I think the employment rate right now is 3.8%, and certainly we need workers. Do you have some suggestions as to how we can do that without looking like we're subsidizing particular industries?

5:10 p.m.

Senior Advisor, Government Relations and Public Affairs, Building and Construction Trades Department, AFL-CIO

Christopher Smillie

You don't need to subsidize a particular industry. One suggestion we've made to the Minister of Finance and HRSDC a number of times is that you can do it through employment insurance in terms of a travel grant. Instead of paying people for 26 weeks, or a number of weeks, you give them their money up front. Then they can get on a train, plane, or automobile and go to where the work is.

The other way to do it is like the home renovation tax credit. You go out and spend the money on a plane or train ticket to go where the work is, and then you get the money back on your taxes.

In fact, I believe one of the NDP members at the last committee hearing asked me to table the costing for that, and I did, so you should be able to have a look at that. The clerk got it mid-March.

It wouldn't be subsidizing industries, but I think at the end of the day, there are certain occupations in demand. You could choose based on economic demand in certain regions which occupations are most in need, and then apply those rules to those occupations. I don't think that would be subsidizing an industry. I think it would be addressing economic need in different regions.

To summarize, the grant through EI is like an upfront payment for travel, or a tax-credit-based system for travel. I think there's an NDP bill, actually, which goes over the tax credit issue. It's a non-partisan issue, but I think it's one that could be addressed fairly easily.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Okay.

Mr. Green, you made a comment towards the end of your presentation that intrigued me. You talked about the moral obligation to assist others out of energy poverty. I'm just wondering if you would care to elaborate on that a little bit more. We hear a lot of moral assertions around our energy development, but that is a bit different perspective.

I'm wondering if you have anything else you'd like to say, or put in, in terms of testimony about that issue.

5:10 p.m.

Senior Director, Energy and Natural Resources Studies, Fraser Institute

Dr. Kenneth Green

There's a group derived from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce called the Institute for 21st Century Energy, which publishes an international index of energy security. They conclude that the more players that are in global trade in energy, particularly large players like Canada, the more stable those world markets are and of course the lower world prices are. The lower world prices are and the more stable they are, the more developing countries can have a shot at achieving development. Why is that important? It's not just for humanitarian reasons, but we also know that countries that are more prosperous are actually more inclined and able to take care of their environment.

So if you really care about environmental protection, what you need to foster in countries that are undergoing great environmental degradation, not to mention human health degradation, is greater wealth. Greater wealth comes through affordable energy, and they can use access to energy to bootstrap themselves up into producing economies.

To me, that is the moral dimension of this, which is that trade is generally good. Trade benefits both the seller and the buyer; the seller gets something they want more than the product they had to sell, and the buyer gets something they want more than the money they have to use to buy it. Everyone is made better off. That's true very much for energy as it is with any other trade good.

So if we want to be players in the world community through markets, it's a moral imperative that we participate.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Very interesting. That's a very different perspective than some of the other things we've heard.

This is to panellists generally here. We've talked a bit about timeframes. I think Mr. Heaps mentioned 2015 as a real barrier in terms of time for oil. I'm just wondering if there are any other specific time issues you gentlemen would like to talk to in terms of when we need to get into particular markets if we want to be competitive. Mr. Smillie may want to talk about some of the labour issues. We already talked about the intergenerational thing and the age of workers. I'm just wondering, are you interested in taking a couple of minutes to talk about any of those specific timeframe issues we might face in terms of market diversification?

Mr. Heaps, you look eager to go.

5:15 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer and Co-Founder, Corporate Knights Inc.

Toby Heaps

Yes, just a really short contribution.

According to the National Electric Reliability Corporation, between now and 2022—with most of it happening by 2017—71 gigawatts of fossil fuel power generation will be retired in the U.S. That's a ton of energy. and there's going to be a replacement form for it. Some of it will be natural gas—a good chunk of it will be—but a lot of it won't be.

If we step into the forge with the readily available energy and we can get permission to export our clean electricity under the renewable portfolio standards—which the majority of states have, but they currently do not include hydro imports under the renewable portfolio standard. If we could get that changed in the next few years, there's a huge opportunity for us to bridge that gap that will be left when the fossil fuel assets are retired. There's a whole raft of EPA regulations coming out around coal that's going to cause more to retire, so the 71 gigawatts by 2022 is viewed as a conservative estimate.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Is there anyone else?

Mr. Smillie.

5:15 p.m.

Senior Advisor, Government Relations and Public Affairs, Building and Construction Trades Department, AFL-CIO

Christopher Smillie

It takes us four or five years to cook a welder, the same amount of time it takes to cook a doctor or a dentist. Anyone we're training right now isn't a certified journeyperson until plus-four years.

We really need to get it right now for the projects we're thinking about in 2017-18.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Any other gentlemen?

5:15 p.m.

Senior Director, Energy and Natural Resources Studies, Fraser Institute

Dr. Kenneth Green

I will offer one quick comment.

As I spoke earlier, the projections for U.S. energy independence are for 2020 to 2035. If that leads to saturation of the U.S. refining markets, again, that will itself close a window for Canadian product imports to the United States.

If we wait long enough and allow the U.S. boom to displace the surplus capacity at refineries in the U.S., we could miss the window on moving the oil sands bitumen to the U.S. refineries entirely.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Mr. Burt, if you would like, you can answer that as well.

The bells are ringing, so we don't have much time.

Did you want to take a minute or two?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Industrial Economic Trends, Conference Board of Canada

Michael Burt

I don't really have much to add.

I agree very much on the pipeline deadline. We have a bit of capacity to extend it through rail movements, but there are limitations to what we can do with that. I would say that's really a critical deadline.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK

Yes, but what are the consequences? We heard a little bit from Mr. Green earlier, but—

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

He's not going to ask it, Mr. Julian.

Thank you all very much for your presentations today, and for answering questions. It's been another very interesting meeting.

I want to thank Michael Burt, from the Conference Board of Canada; Christopher Smillie, from the Building and Construction Trades; Toby Heaps, from Corporate Knights Inc.; and Kenneth Green, from the Fraser Institute.

Thank you all very much, gentlemen.

The meeting is adjourned.