Evidence of meeting #82 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was electricity.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
NDP
Laurin Liu NDP Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Indeed, if you could submit it in its entirety to the committee, we would appreciate it.
Thank you.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My questions are for Mr. Burpee.
I find this chart on page 7 of the document that shows imports and exports very interesting. It specifically mentions that the big producers of hydroelectricity, Quebec, Manitoba, and British Columbia, sometimes—well, in Quebec's case it's very clear—export their surplus electricity.
I'm interested in the British Columbia one, though, where it talks about exporting almost 11,000 gigawatt hours, but it also imports about 8,000. It's kind of curious. Can you explain that one a little bit? If 11,000 is excess and they're importing 8,000, is this because of geography and other things? What is it?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
It's time of day and time of year and the fact that in B.C. you have good hydro storage. But, in general, the trade of electricity is very dynamic and there's not one U.S. market; there are several. So B.C. interconnects with the western market; Ontario is into the midwest ISO and New York; and Quebec is into either New England or New York. In that case, they all interact, and it's traded depending on the market prices by hour. It's actually traded by hour.
B.C. had a net surplus of just under three terawatt hours last year, and I think the year before it was actually a net importer. It had a really high water year, so it had an opportunity. In B.C. there's an interplay with Alberta next door to it, a 300-megawatt tie, as well as into Washington State and all the way down to California.
That just reflects various times of the year, times of day, how much water is available, how much can be stored, and what electricity prices are. For B.C. Hydro, through Powerex, if they see market prices are really low in the U.S., they'll actually buy it, store it, and then sell it when prices are high.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
So this would seem to suggest a really highly integrated market between British Columbia, anyway, and probably all of—
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Yes, it's B.C. and then Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, and New Brunswick. As I said, these transactions occur hourly. It's really dynamic.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Hydro storage, is that literally pumping the water back up using excess electricity that you don't need at that time?
5:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
No, when we talk about hydro storage, it means not operating your unit. So you don't run your water; you buy from somewhere else when it's cheap. It's the same thing as storing that electricity.
In the case of Hydro-Québec, if it buys out of the Ontario market, it won't run its facilities. That power will power part of industry, and it could be in Montreal. Then when the price in Ontario comes up, it'll stop buying out of Ontario and then it'll run its own facility. It's the most efficient form of energy storage.
A lot of what's coming out of Ontario now was produced out of wind, an excess produced out of wind and nuclear overnight. So it's very efficient, because you're just not operating and then when you have.... Hydroelectric is very efficient to begin with. Pump storage is less efficient because you actually have to pump the water up.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
These are north-south grids, just like with oil, and now we're talking about east-west or west-east. Are there any potential east-west infrastructure programs that could be on the horizon? We could look at Muskrat Falls. That one is interprovincial. Are other examples that may be on the horizon that may make sense?
5:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
I would say in the long term you would look at Ontario, Quebec, Newfoundland and Labrador, and look at how they work together to move south, and this is over a very long period of time.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
5:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Yes, as I said, there could be one or two along the way.
Then going to the west, I know the reason Manitoba is focused south is that there has been a bigger market there.
Looking at Saskatchewan, one thing we didn't mention in terms of diversification is being able to keep coal in the mix, and Saskatchewan's SaskPower, through Boundary Dam unit 3, has a major carbon capture and storage plant under way that will be operating by this time next year. If it operates and operates well, then it preserves coal as an option for the future, because it proves out carbon capture and storage.
If that does not work out, then in the long term there might be other opportunities from, say, Manitoba going west.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Garneau.
I would ask a question, but I'd only get one-third out before the time is up.
Mr. Anderson, ask a short question, please.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
David Anderson Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
I guess I have only a minute or two.
Mr. Brunelle, what is the value of your polyester chain right now through its links, and what do you see as its potential if a Line 9 reversal takes place?
I don't think we got those numbers, and I'm just wondering if you have them or if you know what they are. What is the value of that chain now, and what do you consider it will be if Line 9 is reversed?
5:25 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
I don't have numbers for you right now on how much money it is. We have some numbers in there about all of the structures of the AIEM members.
But for sure, it's doing a product in Canada, which we are using, and it's using the value added that we can do on it—
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
5:25 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
There are some jobs, but I don't want to be misinterpreted.
5:25 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
Really, the message is to give us options, and we will be able to build on that.
Whatever the number is, if we don't have options on feedstock, well, it will be difficult for the future. If we have options, then it's open and we can build on it. We can try to do better and do more, and obviously bring value added for Canada.
5:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Anderson.
Thank you to all members of the committee for your questions and comments.
Thank you especially to the witnesses from the Montreal-East Industrial Association, Monsieur Brunelle and Monsieur Tsingakis; from the Canadian Electricity Association, Mr. Burpee; from Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, Monsieur Lavoie; and from the UA, Monsieur Telford.
Again, thank you all very much.
The meeting is adjourned.