Evidence of meeting #82 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was electricity.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Brunelle, it was my understanding that you were in favour of reversing the flow of line 9 where east Montreal is concerned.
You did a good job describing the aromatics industry. At the end of the process, you end up with white beads.
Do these beads stay in Canada to be transformed into clothing or other value-added products or do you export them?
4:15 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
Given that we represent about 1% of world production, there are possibilities for uses in North America. I could not tell you who all the clients are that use these small white beads, but certainly many manufacturers in Montreal and elsewhere in Canada or the United States are able to use them.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
I know there is a lot of them, but do you know what percentage of them remain in Canada compared to the amount that leaves the country?
4:15 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
We could ask for that information. That is part of the business strategy of the company based in Montreal.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
That would be of interest to me, because it is nonetheless a product that is relatively crude before being processed.
4:15 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
Once it has become a bead, it only needs to undergo one more processing stage to become thread or packaging material.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you.
Do you think that reversing the flow of line 9 could bring the olefin industry back to Montreal?
4:15 p.m.
President, Montreal-East Industrial Association
I don't think so. If we want to be competitive, we have to look at what is happening next door in the United States. If we want to manufacture ethene, it is better to make it using ethane which is a component of natural gas. If that great project of liquefied natural gas carriers had materialized in Quebec, some ethane would have been available through that process, which would have led to other possibilities. However, in the current context, I don't think that reversing the flow of line 9 could bring back the ethene industry. That has more chances of succeeding if we use natural gas.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Telford, one of the choke points, if you like, to our being able to develop our natural resources seems to be the skilled tradesmen you represent. Do you have opinions about whether our own community colleges that produce future plumbers and pipefitters are responding to the need here in Canada? I realize it's a provincial matter, but do you speak to them and say that we need more people, and are they responding to that? I'm interested in knowing whether we're growing enough skilled tradesmen within Canada.
4:15 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
That's a good question, and because it's provincial jurisdiction, I don't know if we want to get into province by province.
I can tell you that the poster boy for it would be New Brunswick. In New Brunswick, due to their down economy for a long time now, they understand that a lot of their people have to get out of New Brunswick to make a living. They've devoted community colleges to steam fitters, sprinkler fitters, and welders especially. They've put a lot of time and resources into the community college level for welding—a lot in my trade as well. I don't know about the electrician, the millwright, and ironworker—I can't speak for them.
I would say that the community colleges in Alberta are busting at the seams with apprenticeship. They're doing all they can. I think they're good, and I think they're trying.
Our problem with apprenticeship is the fact that we need journey people to put apprentices out. You can't send apprentices out to work with apprentices; we need journey people.
A lot of people in my industry—and they don't share my opinion—think that temporary foreign worker is a dirty phrase. I don't think it is. For every two TFWs we can bring into this country in my trade, we can put two apprentices to work. If I don't get more tradesmen here, I'm going to be choked on getting apprentices out. We cannot put 15 apprentices together on a nuclear power plant. We can't put 15 apprentices together on a heavy oil project. They have to be mentored by tradespeople.
On the community college thing, I think they're doing a fairly good job, and we back up that training in my organization with night classes and weekend programs.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Burpee, I have some questions in your area. If I understood, you may have put it in the book here—I'm sure you did—about 70% of our electricity is non-hydrocarbon, and about 30% is hydrocarbon produced.
What is the trend for the hydrocarbon-produced electricity? I'd like to know about all three: coal, gas, and oil. Where is that going ahead of us?
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Well, actually in Canada we're about 80% non-CO2 emitting, so non-hydrocarbon. It was roughly 63% hydroelectricity last year, close to 2% wind, and then 15% nuclear. Then of the remaining, about 5% is gas and the bulk of the rest is coal.
Where are we going with coal? Well, under the greenhouse gas regulation for coal-fired facilities, that's going to be dropping off between now and 2030, 2035. In 2010 our install capacity was around 26,000 megawatts. It'll be something like 3,600 by 2030, so it's on a downward trend. A lot of that will be replaced by gas, but also a lot will be replaced by further hydro developments, wind, and if Ontario maintains its commitment to nuclear, then nuclear as well, including the new nuclear.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Okay. Thank you very much.
We talk a lot about smart grid technology, or one hears a great deal about it. Where is your association on smart grid technology for this country?
4:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
We are great supporters of smart grid and the evolving technology. Certainly Ontario is a leader, and B.C. and Quebec would be the other ones that are probably the most advanced in terms of starting with smart metre installations, then all the other upgrades to the system to make it a smarter grid.
With that, we can pinpoint problems faster, avoid problems, so reliability gets better. You can make better use of existing assets, and probably a key part is that it will enable a move to electric vehicles in urban areas, because you can better manage the overall system. And as you use more electricity within transportation, you reduce greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles from the transportation sector significantly.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Garneau.
We go now to the five-minute round, starting with Mr. Leef, then Mr. Allen, and then Mr. Nicholls.
Go ahead, please, Mr. Leef.
May 21st, 2013 / 4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Mr. Lavoie. This might be repetitive from our earlier committee stuff today. I'm just wondering if you can comment on the general preferential tariff and how that is helping us leverage trade agreements, and what importance that has to being able to diversify markets.
4:20 p.m.
Director of Policy, Manufacturing Competitiveness and Innovation, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters
The general preferential tariff was a foreign aid program from 1974, aimed at providing developing economies with better access to industrialized countries. It hasn't been changed in 40 years. With the changes in the last budget, 72 or 74 countries will be taken off the list. We've been supportive of doing that, from the rationale of it being a foreign aid program. If some of these countries are now bigger economies than ours, there's no point in giving them foreign aid.
The point I made earlier this morning in another committee was that some associations, some other industry sectors, are also advocating the elimination of tariffs just with the narrow view of what that means for consumers. I think we also need to look at how.... If we start eliminating tariffs on everything and other countries don't do it, we're going to lose some negotiating power when it comes time to negotiate free trade agreements. Why would a country negotiate something with Canada if it has access to pretty much everything?
I'm not sure how it would affect the export of resources, because right now there is a demand. There is demand for cheaper sources of energy. I don't think the U.S. producers, for example, need free trade agreements, because they do have a good model.
That being said, as I said, price is really volatile in this business. I think free trade agreements may be some.... They are certainly a political tool to get country-to-country trust and further trade. In that sense, I would say they are a good thing.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
This question is for Mr. Telford, and then maybe again if you have time, Mr. Lavoie, you could answer part of this.
It builds a little on what Mr. Garneau was saying about the community colleges. Budget 2013 invested a line item in the Centre for Northern Innovation in Mining in my riding in the Yukon Territory. It's been really focused on this trades and technical facility to graduate people in very specific jobs in trades and training. You made a point about apprentices and journeymen, and they're looking at evolving that into being able to come up with a real creative way of deploying the work force so there isn't that constant and continuous burden on the employer to always have somebody in a training position with them, and spread that out a bit over various fields. It's pretty creative and neat.
Through a diversification lens, how important are those kinds of investments that the federal government makes in community colleges, like the one in the Yukon, to deal with skilled labour market shortages? Two, what is the tipping point for us in terms of our diversifying the market to the extent that, with every market expansion and every web we cast out there to diversify the products we deliver, we would also have to do the same in terms of diversifying the work force, which is already under a fair bit of stress and strain?
Do you have any comments about whether we should narrow that focus in diversification to achieve workers, or are we okay to broaden it, but at the same time we need to broaden that labour market?
4:25 p.m.
Director of Canadian Affairs, United Association Canada, United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada
On your first question about government funding, I think it's critical that the federal government participate in training, whether or not it's transferring money to provinces or territories and then letting them work the money through the system. The federal government has always supported apprenticeship in this country, and I assume it'll continue to do that. There's no doubt we've got to ramp up our apprentice intake. I think across Canada in the next 10 years in the skilled trades we're going to lose 20% of our work force. That's the number that's been put out by.... I'm not sure what group put it out. Maybe it's the Construction Sector Council or something.
Apprenticeship is paramount. We have to get at it. We've been sitting on it for a while. A lot of people have been telling us about trade shortages for five, six, and ten years, and we didn't really believe it. We saw it two years ago. We're seeing it today, including places in the north, where I had just assumed it would take more funds to do the training. It's just a more expensive place to do business. We see that in the construction costs in the north.
As far as diversification is concerned, I know what you're saying. How many times are we going to cut this pie? We've only got so many workers to go around. I think that's a challenge to us to get our work force up. I think we can do it. I think some of the people who have let us down in pursuing skilled trades are the high schools. I think we've got to go back past the community colleges. They don't teach trades anymore. We don't even talk about trades in high schools. Trades always used to be an option. You go to university for two years and when you fail, your dad gets you a job at the plumbers' union. It's not the case anymore. We're getting the ones who were going to go to university.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
Mr. Burpee, I'd like to start with you. I have a couple of comments on your briefing document, “The Integrated Electric Grid”. Specifically on page 3 you talk about ensuring free, fair, and fluid interjurisdictional trade. One of the comments is about updating and enhancing the efficiency of administrative procedures for authorizing exports of electricity across the international border.
Can you comment as to what some of those administrative roadblocks and bottlenecks are, because those exports would obviously have to be approved by the NEB? What are some of those roadblocks you're running into that could potentially impact our export markets?
4:30 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Actually, in fairness to the NEB, with the last changes in the act they're actually starting to look at streamlining the process. At the same time, they've also introduced a few other measures, such as administrative monetary penalties. It doesn't stop the permitting process, but I would think that the recent changes to the act actually help us in that case.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Allen Conservative Tobique—Mactaquac, NB
So this has been updated a little bit then, since that—
4:30 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Electricity Association
Well, it's a generic statement. What we actually get worried about, from either side of the border—this document was for the U.S. as well—is presidential permits. It's no different from what's needed for a pipeline. If you look at some of the transmission lines under consideration right now, they also need presidential permits.