Evidence of meeting #9 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Steve MacLean  President, Canadian Space Agency
Richard Moore  Chair, Geosciences Committee, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada
James Ferguson  Chair and Acting President, Geomatics Industry Association of Canada
Scott Cavan  Program Director, Aboriginal Affairs, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada

October 24th, 2011 / 4:20 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here this afternoon.

First of all, Dr. MacLean, welcome home. I know you have roots here in this city, and it's nice to welcome you home.

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

Dr. Steve MacLean

Thank you very much.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Can I pick up where you left off, starting with you, Dr. MacLean? You just referenced that even the United Nations is now turning to the Canadian Space Agency and asking us to further assist in global monitoring and tracking of greenhouse gases, the impacts, and so on.

I just want to step back if I can. One of the things I've been looking for, as we conduct a northern Canadian natural resources study here, is whether we have any coherence or connection between the exploitation of important resources, backstopped by proper geomapping, for example, the economic potential, which is massive.... I'm trying to see whether there's a connection here between economic exploitation policy and greenhouse gas reduction in environmental policy.

You're a deputy minister equivalent, Dr. MacLean, in the public service. You are the head of an agency, if I recall.

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

As the head of the Canadian Space Agency, with a $300 million budget, have you been presented by the government—PCO, beyond, anywhere—with a plan, a road map, a trajectory on how we're going to reduce our overall greenhouse gases by 17% from now until 2020?

Has anything been presented to the CSA?

4:20 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

Dr. Steve MacLean

Not as a president of the CSA, but I was on the government's advisory panel for COP 15 in Copenhagen, and at that meeting among the negotiating team for Canada was a plan for how you were going to meet the targets in COP 15. One of the major areas was the transportation sector. By reducing the emissions in the transportation sector—I forget the number right now, but it was more than 50% of our output—you could go a long way.

The other techniques were in areas with respect to managing heating. These are all the areas you see in the media, so I probably don't need to go into detail on them.

But as a member of the advisory panel, I did see the government's plan to meeting the targets they were negotiating.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Do you have a copy of that plan that you can share with this committee?

4:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

Dr. Steve MacLean

No, I don't, I'm sorry.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

I was in Copenhagen as well, and I saw the plan presented by Minister Prentice at the time. I wasn't on the advisory committee.

In fact there were no consultations with anybody in the opposition, either before, during, or after that meeting, which was unprecedented. I saw the paper that was presented to the standing committee and it was one page. Now I'm sure you had access to more information, and I'm glad to hear that.

Maybe, Mr. Chair, we could follow up afterwards and request from the government a copy of the plan that apparently exists. I've been looking for it now since Copenhagen, and with every series of witnesses that comes through we've been asking for copies of it.

But let me just turn, if I could, to—

4:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

Dr. Steve MacLean

If I could just add, my role in that meeting was in the monitoring activities the Space Agency could provide, I believe, because that became a major contribution that Canada could make to the rest of the international community. That's an important point.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

That's exactly where I want to go next with you, which is the question of monitoring the effects.

One of the things that is hard for folks who live in the north to come to ground with is.... As one grand chief once put it to me, we want the diamonds but we want the caribou too. It's this reconciling of what's going on, overall care and capacity in the only semi-pristine tundra left on the face of the planet.

You just described how the migration of pollution from China and elsewhere is wreaking havoc in the region—ozone problems, canary in the mine. It goes on and on. It's a big challenge. To what extent are you seized with helping to inform overall policy-making by telling the truth about the climate change crisis and the challenge we're facing?

4:25 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

Dr. Steve MacLean

I think this is exactly what the Canadian Space Agency can do and what other space agencies around the world can do. The quality and the quantity of our data now is frankly unbelievable. We used to have resolutions that were 30 metres; we now have resolutions that are half a metre. We can see millimetre change in something that is let's say, 0.7 metres or 1 metre square. If we pass over it day by day by day, we'll see millimetre changes in it.

Just to give you an idea, we track the caribou. We actually see their footprints through the tundra and we can track that. At the same time there is the geomagnetic data. When you take that and couple it with our RADARSAT three-dimensional data, this is the best way to determine the geology of an area.

The Canadian Space Agency is providing data to the leadership of the country that gives them a balanced picture of this entire issue. We have the best satellites in the world to measure the atmosphere. We now see a half a kilometre in a vertical profile. That's phenomenal. And because we see that, we can tell you what's going on.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

What's my time, Mr. Chair? Another minute?

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

You have two minutes.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

David McGuinty Liberal Ottawa South, ON

Can I ask this, then, of both you and the geomapping representative, Mr. Ferguson.

Professor E.O. Wilson from Harvard has been calling, for almost 15 years now, for a biological survey of the planet. This country has been mapped more or less through the Geological Survey of Canada. There continues to be a strong push for the mapping of more traditional natural resources. His thinking is that a country that does not map its biodiversity, for example, is a very foolish country; that a country that does not understand that soils take 100 years to produce one inch of topsoil, that is not monitoring the extent of its soils and the health of its soils and doesn't treat it as a natural resource, is a foolish country.

Mr. Ferguson, I've been looking through your material, and, Dr. MacLean, your presentation, and I haven't seen anybody talk about it. Does this country need a biological survey of Canada? Do we not need to be able to take a snapshot in time to find out where we're going, what's happening with biodiversity, what's happening with species at risk, particularly in the context of the fragility of the northern ecosystems where we have species that are so much at risk?

Mr. Ferguson.

4:25 p.m.

Chair and Acting President, Geomatics Industry Association of Canada

James Ferguson

I'm not intimately familiar with E.O. Wilson's specifications or requirements for a biosurvey of the planet, but I will say that our members in certain capacities support all types of mapping requirements and databasing, including biodiversity. In theory, our members will be some of the first people called upon to provide solid base data and information in a geospatial sense so that any biodiversity mapping and follow-on can be built in a logical and reproducible fashion with real coordinates on the face of the earth.

So apart from the need for full biodiversity mapping in Canada--I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on that, but our members would be some of those practitioners who support an effort such as that.

4:30 p.m.

President, Canadian Space Agency

Dr. Steve MacLean

I can't comment on the outcome, but I can tell you what we can do. In forestry we can measure the infestation of the pine beetle. You see it with your own eye from space, but our RADARSAT-2 can see it, and you can watch that propagation from west to east.

In hydrology it's something we don't do right now, but we could easily measure the flux of the spring where water rises six feet and then watch where it goes. You need four assets to do that, but we can do that. We can do habitat monitoring. We did it in Haiti. We tracked dengue fever, so we know where the mosquitoes are. We can't see the mosquitoes, obviously, but we see their habitats and we send DARTs to fix that.

You can't do everything with respect to biodiversity, but we can do quite a bit. We can do geology. We have a 3-D map of the earth. We don't have it, but we're developing a 3-D map of Canada. Add that to the fact that an instrument will be flying soon that Canada has major participation in that measures soil moisture down to half a metre. We have something called CloudSat, where Canada has the klystron, which is the heart of that instrument. It measures all the precipitation in a cloud, and it's going over every spot in Canada once a day.

If you do all this together, you start having the data that allows you to describe biodiversity, to work issues in hydrology, to work what happens when soil moisture changes its humidity context by so much. The next thing you know the modellers take all that data...and they're starting to get something realistic.

Canada is well positioned to do that. Our long-term space plan talks not about answering the question, but providing the data that allows those individuals to answer the question, and that's where we're coming from.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

We go now to the five-minute rounds, starting with Mr. Trost.

Go ahead, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here for our study on resource development in northern Canada.

The representatives from PDAC were discussing some of our northern mapping programs; GEM would be the largest one. You said you support continuing this from the five years to, if I remember, the full 10-year program that was envisioned. At this point, having seen it a few years in, what would your recommendations be as far as changing, improving, or modifying the program as we go forward?

Would you argue for more emphasis on certain aspects, be it technological or geographical? Would you include more information that would not be as traditional in geological surveys, perhaps GEOSAT? What would be your recommendations on how it should be modified and improved as we continue our geological mapping?

4:30 p.m.

Chair, Geosciences Committee, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada

Richard Moore

I haven't seen enough of the products, what they've done, to be able to recommend any changes from what they're doing. But the position of PDAC and of our group is generally that maps are what we want, feet on the ground, looking at the rocks, and producing maps from that perspective. These are lasting documents that are good for decades.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Mr. Ferguson, is there anything your industry members have seen that perhaps they could add that hasn't been a part of these surveys?

4:30 p.m.

Chair and Acting President, Geomatics Industry Association of Canada

James Ferguson

I haven't spoken directly to members of the GEM program, but I have asked researchers who are working on the GEM program in the field and others whether or not the program includes up-to-date geospatial mapping. I think the answer was they're not sure, because they're sourcing their maps from sources that aren't necessarily part of that program.

I think it could be a pretty valuable addition to it to--

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

Let me then suggest to the witnesses that if they do get more information, to submit written briefs or notes to this committee before we're done with our study. That might be helpful for us.

I have a follow-up question. We have not only the geomapping program but the provincial geological surveys and the federal geological survey. What do you see as the predominant challenges and needs of these surveys going forward and in the case of this study, particularly when it comes to resource development in northern Canada?

Mr. Moore, you noted you've been a geologist for 40-some years. Coming from a geophysics background myself, I know it takes quite a few years to mature a talented geoscientist with field experience and so forth. It's not something you just learn in school. I'm not just asking for the bureaucratic and so forth, but human resources in all aspects of what you see going forward as needed for the geological surveys, again, particularly with regard to dealing with the north.

4:35 p.m.

Chair, Geosciences Committee, Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada

Richard Moore

The human resources are always a big key to what we feel is needed in Canada. During one of the recessions, much of the mining industry retracted, students stopped going to university, and some of the geology schools shut down in the universities, so there is a shortage of geologists now in Canada.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Bradley Trost Conservative Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK

What do you do to change it?