Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 24th, 2011

[Bradley Trost, Conservative, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

We're talking about standards being put together. Mr. MacLean, of course, you'll need money for some of the projects you're suggesting, but other than money and the standards coordination, what other steps need to be taken so that all the data we have of the north can be aligned? Mr. Ferguson has some suggestions for geomatics, and the GEM program will probably be continuing.

All three witnesses can answer this one. What else needs to be done other than the financial commitments to get the best quality data for the north?

[Dr. Steve MacLean]

With respect to all the data that's developed, whether it's space-based, airborne, or even underwater as well, the mandate for data is that it be spread across many entities. The standard has to be developed so that we march to the same tune. All of those entities have to ensure they're following that standard so that when the data is stored, you're storing it with the same georeference. This is the second piece of the problem: you go from wherever you collect the data to wherever you store the data. This is so that someone who goes and accesses the data doesn't have to modify it or do some software to get what he really needs. The big issue here is the coordination of the many groups and levels that are involved and to store the data so that it's accessible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Trost. Your time is up.

We go now to Mr. Stewart, for up to five minutes. Go ahead please.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to guests. Thanks for all this very interesting information.

I have a question for Mr. Cavan about first nations involvement in prospecting and the capacity of local communities to make use of all this great information. We heard about an array of information, and there were so many acronyms I can't get through them all myself.

It looks like the development of mines in the north is a top-down process, essentially. Companies gather this information and make pitches to local communities. I'm wondering what could be done to make this more of a bottom-up process. As I said in the last committee meeting, a lot of the best projects in British Columbia have been developed in concert with local first nations, if not driven by local first nations.

Do you see a way that local and northern aboriginal communities could make use of this information to perhaps develop projects that are more ground up rather than top down?

[Scott Cavan]

Thank you.

I'll have to say that the PDAC does advocate for actual partnership between the mineral proponent and the community and for actual engagement with the communities. They actively look for participation and look to create prosperity on a mutually beneficial level. It is happening. Industry does talk to the communities when they get there. One thing that's happening is we're looking at and actually identifying the need for greater understanding amongst all the parties. That's both on the first nations side, in terms of the mining sequence, as well as on the industry side, in terms of first nations sensitivities. We are actively looking at trying to create a product or tool in conjunction with the related people on the ground, be it industry or first nations.

There are already materials that have been developed. One is a mining toolkit for aboriginal communities in conjunction with the Canadian Aboriginal Minerals Association, the Mining Association of Canada, and Natural Resources Canada. This describes the mining sequence from start to finish to help encourage...and to provide information so that informed decisions can be made. Recognizing the turning point from 2004 forward in terms of the duty to consult, everybody recognizes that.... Again, greater encouragement and helping clarify some of the consultation pieces and the clarity around engagement practices.... We monitor that. We look at better ways to open the doors, because it's about moving forward together. It's about winning and it's about getting to the deal. There has to be information on all sides.

The information flow is a very high-level collection for ideas and for very early exploration to identify a mineral deposit that could lead to an exploration. We're looking at the early exploration tenants and moving forward from there into the advanced stage.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Are there many first nations companies that have been formed, so as to keep a lot of that wealth and knowledge within the local community? Talking about northern development, a lot of it is changing the economic status of the aboriginal people. Can you provide examples of local communities that have been able to use this information to stake their own claims and build their own companies?

[Scott Cavan]

I don't have quite the scientific background for what's being talked about here. My experience is more on the ground. When it comes to engagement between industry and first nations communities, that rests with impact benefit agreements and MOUs. But there's been a bigger movement towards inclusion. It's about participation and moving forward as partners. There's a recognition taking place within the industry and the first nations about how to do this together. This is creating collateral business models—catering businesses, transportation, etc. It's moving into a proponent stage. That's happening. But it's not an overnight effect. All we can do is continue to encourage the steps being taken and build on them.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Would there be any way that the government could expand these types of programs to have more local training or university training that might help the local communities move forward?

[Scott Cavan]

I would say that the PDAC is a big fan of any educational or training programming that can further the advancement of the aboriginal communities in the mineral industry, whether it's K to 8 level, high school, post-secondary, or on-the-ground training that leads to a job. There are many different training models out there. We are trying to encourage education in aboriginal communities, and we can see the education happening. We're a big fan of any education and training.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

Mr. Harris.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Cavan, I can appreciate the planning and the development of programs and the encouragement of partnership. I'm not sure how long you've been in your role or how long the PDAC has had an aboriginal affairs associate. I appreciate the work that's gone into it. But are there any ground-level success stories where we've seen a real cash-in-your-hands economic benefit to the first nations communities that have been working with mining development groups? Is there anything that's actually happened? I know all the work that's being done to make that happen, but is there anything that actually has happened that we could use as a model?

[Scott Cavan]

Off the top of my head, you could look at Detour Gold, the De Beers mine, the Victor Diamond Mine, and the Musselwhite Mine. There are a number of signings between the industry and Moose Creek, Mushkegowuk Council, and Attawapiskat.

That's what I'd be prepared to say about actual successes, where the communities and the industries have actually come to an agreement and they're providing prosperity to each other.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Do you mean that the mines are employing first nations in the mines?

[Scott Cavan]

Yes.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

And there's a real paycheque benefit coming back into the communities? Is that what you mean?

[Scott Cavan]

Yes, there are workers in the mines, and the communities are also supplying some of the collateral businesses. Some of the catering services are supplied by the first nations communities. They're developing businesses in and around the mines. It's not just to work at the mine site. Underground or above ground, they're providing services in and around the mine. That's another piece that we actively promote. It comes down to skills and training.

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

That was the other thing, the skills and training and the upgrade in skills, so that people can move into positions of good, solid, well-paying employment.

I appreciate that. That's what I was looking for, trying to follow where the thing led to some really tangible economic benefits for the bands.

[Scott Cavan]

I'd be happy to provide you with more examples. I know they're out there. Off the top of my head, I didn't come with the pieces around it, but I'd be happy to send you--

[Dick Harris, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

I would really like that. Maybe you could provide it to the committee, because I'm sure some of my colleagues would like to see some of the real success stories as well.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

There's a little time left, Mr. Allen, if you would like to use it.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

A quick question then from the last time. Mr. Ferguson didn't finish on that model in Alberta.

Picking up on Mr. MacLean's comments, how would that make its way down into Canada, and using Alberta as a model, how would you propagate this across Canada? What would that model look like? I understand it is a private-public partnership.

[James Ferguson]

I won't speak to the multinational model. I don't think that's in our purview right now.

However, as I said, we have had discussions with various provinces at the level that they provide mapping services to their clients, who would love to cooperate with the private sector and other government jurisdictions in order to be able to put a plan together for a national strategy that includes the north, which is a very big part of that.

There are definitely a number of different models that could be pursued. The private-public partnership is one of them. There have been a couple of other models that have been adopted in other jurisdictions as well.

It still needs more discussion and some more research into that, but our membership believes it is something that is completely doable if we're all on the same page talking about the same strategic objectives across the nation. I think right now we're not quite sure what all of those are. And that's actually what one of our recommendations is, to find out exactly what all the needs of the users are without making those assumptions first. Once we understand that, then we start moving into how we can fund this, and how we can make it work as a model so that everybody benefits.

As I said, I don't think any of our members are advocating free data or free information. What they would like--to build on what Dr. MacLean said--is access to it. It's a shame that we're talking about all of this technology and all of these sensors, but I'm not sure everybody in this room can get on their computer and access that information to answer some of the questions that have been asked today. And I think that's what we should be striving for across the board.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Ferguson, and Mr. Allen and Mr. Harris for your questions.

Mr. Lizon, you have up to five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask Dr. MacLean about the project that the Space Agency is doing, the DFO mapping of the northern coastline. Can you tell this committee a little bit more about this project?

[Dr. Steve MacLean]

We ran a pilot project this summer and did 550 square kilometres. There is a plan to do an identical project next summer during the time when the Northwest Passage is open, which is approximately six weeks in the summer, roughly in the latter part of August and the first part of September.

RADARSAT data from RADARSAT-2 was used to get the coastlines at very high resolution. So we ended up with a three-dimensional image of the coastline and the rock outcrop. Then DFO flew in aircraft with the latest lidar instrument, which made bathymetry measurements. Depending on the clarity of the water, it measures down to 50 metres, so you use the lidar to do the intermittent areas of rock and shallow water, and in addition, launched off the Louis S. St. Laurent , they did underwater surveys with sonar down to a depth of 200 metres.

The concept of this pilot project is to show, again to the leadership of the country, that this is the best way to chart the Arctic, because right now it's only 10% charted. Then there would be a proposal made to cabinet about how to do that. It would take 10 to 15 years to chart the entire Arctic, using the latest and greatest technology.

Obviously, using the space assets it doesn't take that long to get the coastline to the resolution that we're looking at, or the rock outcrops, but the lidar and the sonar take longer, given that you're working six weeks a year, when it's open.