Natural Resources Committee on Oct. 24th, 2011

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Is this a project that will be ongoing for some time?

[Dr. Steve MacLean]

No, this summer was the first time. It's a coordinated effort between Environment Canada, the Canadian Space Agency, DND, and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It was done within our authorities to show that if we were asked to chart the Arctic, this is how the group would do it.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Do you think there is a need to monitor the coastline of our north, due to the changes you were talking about before? If the coastline will be changing as a result of rising temperatures and the--

[Dr. Steve MacLean]

The answer is yes. There are islands in the Northwest Passage that some summers are there and some summers they're below water. The erosion you see when you're up there is such that we should be measuring it. There's erosion because the ice is free.

In the old days, winds and storms didn't matter, because going over the ice was like going over land. Now the wave action because of winds and storms is higher, so erosion on the coastline in the Northwest Passage is higher. Coupled with the fact that the permafrost is starting to rise as it melts, that changes the coastline dramatically. So it is important to measure these changes in real time.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you very much.

Do I still have some time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Yes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I have a question for the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada.

Can you tell us if the exploration tax credit has any effect on creating jobs in the mining industry?

[Richard Moore]

Yes, it has a great positive effect. It really helps the junior mining industry attract funds to carry out exploration.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Do you have any good examples that you can share with this committee?

[Richard Moore]

It would be nice to come up with some mines that have been discovered, right off the top of my head, but I can think of some in the ring of fire in Ontario. A lot of the junior companies that started the first exploration up there would have used flow-through funds and the mineral exploration tax credit to do their exploration.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Can you talk about the difference between mining exploration and mining operations?

[Richard Moore]

They're chalk and cheese. Mining exploration is low impact. A geologist wanders over the surface, or uses his computer with geomatic materials and satellite materials. We go into the field to take samples and measurements. The largest impact in the north may be the camps we have to build in order to stay there.

Mining operations, of course, are multi-million-dollar activities. They're quite different and need a different regulatory regime to manage them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Lizon.

We will go now to the New Democratic Party and Monsieur Gravelle. Then maybe we'll go to Monsieur Lapointe and Madame Day, depending on the time.

Monsieur Gravelle.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

I would like to ask Mr. Moore to supply to this committee the examples that Mr. Lizon was asking about. Can you give the examples to this committee?

[Richard Moore]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by “examples”.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

On the flow-through shares, what companies were helped?

[Richard Moore]

Perhaps it would be more useful if I provided a long list of these things to the committee afterwards.

[Claude Gravelle, NDP, Nickel Belt, ON]

That's what I'm asking for.

[Richard Moore]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Mr. Gravelle.

Mr. Lapointe, you have the floor.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to go back to a basic calculation. First, I want to be certain I heard correctly. The idea is that a $1 million investment produces a $5 million return. That is in fact the ratio you suggested a moment ago, Mr. Moore? For $1 million in investment, there is a $5 million return.

Let's take geomatics as equivalent, and correct me if the comparison is too poor. When I had my small business in the service industry, if someone had given me $1 for each $5 that I brought in to help me do my market study, I would have been in heaven.

How should the 1:5 ratio be seen as an achievement, as being the right thing to do? I would like to hear your explanation of this.

I have another quick question for you, Mr. Moore. How is your role in relation to geomapping different from the role of the Department of Natural Resources? How are you different and complementary?

I would like to get some clarification from you, Mr. Ferguson. You seem to be critical of the fact that there is no Canadian geomapping plan. You associate that in part with problems for Canadian sovereignty. I have not completely made the connection and I would like to understand that better. Can you help me see what the relationship is between Canadian sovereignty and the lack of a Canadian geomapping plan?

Thank you.

[Richard Moore]

I'm not sure of the exact question, but the one-to-five ratio is moneys spent, with the expenditure on mapping and also collection of geomaterials—other data sets and so on. The exploration industry uses this data. It gives us the information to be able to say this is a good area or that is a good area, and then you invest that much more.

It's not really a return to the country; it's more just investment. That investment in turn leads to discovery and then there is a return from that discovery.

I've often asked various economists to try to make a direct link for me and to show a rate of return, and they never do that. They say it's too complicated and the links are not well enough established.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

So is there no way to make the ratio understandable to a mere mortal like myself? Do the people you have asked the questions think it isn't feasible?

[Richard Moore]

It's—

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

But we agree that it is not a return to the Canadian treasury. The idea is that for each $1 million in investment, there is $5 million in investment. That aspect we understand.