Evidence of meeting #43 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was winter.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
No, that's not the question.
To be clear, was there a difference in how much it increased North America-wide versus how the increase was locally, in different markets in Canada?
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
There was no difference. Okay.
We had a situation, of course, where in the dead of winter, some people had no supply or they had a huge spike—I mean, 100% or more. A spike of 400% is an enormous spike in cost if you're trying to heat your home with this. I don't think those consumers would have felt that there was a well-functioning market at that point.
We heard a lot from the departments and agencies about how they try to ensure there is a well-functioning market, and I appreciate their efforts in that regard. However, certainly I don't think that consumers felt it was there last year, or that there was a level playing field in terms of the way that the market was functioning.
I understood what you said about how you can't say to your members, “Let's talk about the price.” I appreciate that. I can also understand how you would want to say to your members in certain cases, “We don't want to get a bad rap for our industry”.
Let's go back to the suggestions you had about what the Government of Canada should be doing. You seem to be suggesting that the government is not collecting and reporting detailed enough statistics, or accurate or up-to-date enough statistics, on what's happening with propane supplies. How should that be changed?
12:25 p.m.
General Manager, Canadian Propane Association
We just finished a market study of our own in response to this, and there are a lot of statistics that aren't followed. Natural Resources Canada monitors vehicle propane for vehicle pricing, and that's it.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
12:25 p.m.
General Manager, Canadian Propane Association
Well, they don't share that data publicly, if they do.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
Let's talk about the development of energy policy.
The suggestion is that your industry is not included by the Government of Canada in the development of energy policies.
Is that accurate?
12:25 p.m.
General Manager, Canadian Propane Association
I haven't been invited, so at this point, no; we don't feel like we are being involved.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
So the answer is “yes, it is accurate”.
What can the Government of Canada do to prevent this situation?
No, let me go back to this question first of all.
Mr. Deslauriers, I think you said that the National Energy Board had no reason to claim that stocks were adequate to meet demand last winter. If we had had an adequate margin of error or cushion, could we have avoided the problem?
12:25 p.m.
Director General, Association québécoise du propane
I think the forecast was one of the factors, but it was not the most significant factor. It was just one factor.
Clearly, the inaccurate forecasts per se did not cause a shortage of stocks to meet demand. However, factors such as inaccurate forecasts, snowstorms, cold temperatures, demand, technical problems and pipelines made it impossible to keep up with the demand.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Geoff Regan Liberal Halifax West, NS
In addition to the three aspects mentioned by Ms. Labelle, is there anything else the Government of Canada should do in the future to prevent such a problem from happening again in, say, 10 years or so?
12:25 p.m.
Director General, Association québécoise du propane
I think Ms. Labelle said that the government should plan for having a minimum amount of stocks in relation to imports, exports and production, so that they are maintained at a certain level should a combination of factors likely to affect the supply occur, like last year.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit
Thank you, Mr. Regan.
We will go now to the five-minute round. We'll have time for three questioners, and maybe a short fourth.
We will start with Mr. Leef, followed by Monsieur Lauzon and then Monsieur Gravelle.
Go ahead please, Mr. Leef.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Today I get five minutes. He normally gives me three.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Great, see how quick that goes by?
Thanks for your testimony today. I appreciate the recommendations that you put forward, Ms. Labelle. It's good to have witnesses provide recommendations for us to consider.
I'm from the Yukon Territory, so I heat my home with propane and barbecue my moose steaks with it. The latter is the most important use of the propane.
I'm wondering if you could give us a sense of the distribution centres in Canada. What's the lay of the land, so we have a picture of where you're centred? That might give us a better idea of the infrastructure challenges.
12:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Budget Propane 1998 Inc., and Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Propane Association
As you know, we get propane from two sources. First is the barrel; 15% is from refineries across Canada in nine provinces. One of those provinces does not have refineries. But 85% of the production comes from natural gas. It's extracted from Alberta. Edmonton has one fractionation centre. The next one is Sarnia. Probably most of the fractionating is done in Edmonton, and then it is railed into Sarnia, where it's stored. There is some fractionating done in Sarnia also. Then it's railed or trucked into the provinces for most of the distribution.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
From that standpoint, what is the greatest consumer of propane in Canada right now—or what are the top two or three?
12:30 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Budget Propane 1998 Inc., and Chair of the Board of Directors, Canadian Propane Association
Petrochemicals are probably the greatest, and then after that it's industry. If you go into industry, then agriculture is probably number one.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Okay. So if those are your categories, do you have a breakdown now by region, in a general sense? I don't need exact figures. You probably didn't come prepared to deal with this exact point, but I think it's important for the committee to have a decent lay of the land. What regions would be your greatest consumers?
12:30 p.m.
General Manager, Canadian Propane Association
Alberta is the highest, and then probably Ontario, Quebec, and B.C.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Going back now to your recommendations, with that in mind, your consumer base from a high level and your consumer regions from a specific standpoint, what recommendations would you have, in light of the three you provided—collecting stats, determining the rail volume and the impact, and including your group in the development of energy policy—that would help isolate the consumer base in that consumer region to at least limit a future impact, if we can't outright avoid one?