Natural Resources Committee on Feb. 24th, 2015

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank Mr. Lee at the outset for raising the issue that he has raised with us today, and we will take that forward and give it consideration. Thank you.

We talked a lot about some of the changes that we've seen in this industry, and I'm starting to get the feeling—I don't want to be overly optimistic here, but I'm going to address this first to Mr. Chui—that we are seeing quite a tremendous success story here in forestry, that we are seeing a resurgence with new products as well as new markets. I'd just like you to put this all in context for us because we have a way of picking at the edges and pieces of the middle. Can you tell us, in total, how you see the industry today?

[Dr. Ying Hei Chui]

I can certainly say, as a researcher, that this is an exciting time for us doing research in wood because we have a lot of activity going on, mostly toward supporting the use of wood in mid-rise. Now we are talking about tall wood buildings.

I don't think we are there yet. We have still a lot of work in terms of convincing the user, because the consumer still has concerns about wood being an inferior material, but in actual fact, we have the technology. We have firefighting technology that can eliminate that fear. A lot of it is actually emotional and probably requires marketing and convincing by the wood industry or the building code authority that wood buildings can be as safe as steel and concrete buildings.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Where are we with regard to the forest industry compared to 2008, which is the study that was previously done? How do you feel? Are you optimistic, pessimistic, or somewhere in between? Where are we on the continuum of things since 2008?

[Dr. Ying Hei Chui]

We have come a long way since 2008, and a lot of it, as I mentioned in my earlier remarks, is because we had the federal government and provincial governments, to some extent, investing a lot of money in research and development to support this change in the building code. To me, that would be a start for what we can do with wood.

I don't think potentially there's a limit. Now we have moved from four stories to six stories, but the limit is not six stories. The next target for the wood industry is taller, and we have shown with technology that some buildings around the world that are taller than 12 storeys or 14 storeys have been performing well.

As I mentioned earlier, the key for us is to provide the tools for designers and the building industry to use wood products more efficiently. There is a lot of promotion and educational effort that needs to be put in as well.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Okay. Two of the hurdles that have been alluded to here, which I'd like you to just address if you could, are flammability and the rotting issue. Should we use wood? Will it rot over time compared to cement or steel? Could you address those two issues, please?

[Dr. Ying Hei Chui]

With some of the research that we have done with the NEWBuildS network as well as FPInnovations, essentially we're gearing toward addressing those two issues. We have the technology to address the fire issue. For the rotting issue, the key, of course, is to keep moisture away from wood, and that's a building design as well as a construction quality issue. Again, that probably will be the responsibility of perhaps builders to make sure the building code procedures, and so on, are followed because with a properly designed and constructed wood building, there is no reason why it cannot stand for centuries, as has been shown in some buildings in Asia. Some of the temples have been around for a few hundred years.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Are there areas in which wood outperforms materials like steel, for example? What do we need to be telling the consuming public?

Mr. Lee, you're nodding. If you'd like to answer after that, that would be great.

[Dr. Ying Hei Chui]

We emphasize energy-efficient buildings, and I think wood is a very good insulator. You use less heat to heat a wood building compared to a steel and concrete building.

[Christopher Lee]

There's quite a story too around the growing of wood and the capturing of carbon, the harvesting of wood, and the energy consumption in making wood products as compared to steel and concrete.

Another huge story is seismic activity. If you look at homes, I think there are examples in Kyoto, where earthquakes dropped concrete buildings and all the wooden structures were still standing because wood has the ability to flex with the movement of an earthquake. Wood performs very well in those conditions.

[Joan Crockatt, Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

There's something about—

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Thank you, Ms. Crockatt. Your time is up.

We go now to Ms. Duncan and Mr. Rafferty.

You can share your time.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Atkinson, I appreciated chatting with you before the committee and commend you, as others have, on your endeavours.

It's been shared with me that between 1990 and 2011 the federal government provided over $160 million toward the first nation forestry program. That averaged about $7.6 million per year. Since that date the government has only been giving less than half of that per year for a total of $7.1 million over the last three years. Clearly, the federal support for first nations engagement in the sector has diminished.

You also shared with me some of your frustrations with the western diversification program. For example, initially you were partnering with FPInnovations and then all of a sudden you weren't a partner anymore.

Could you share with us some of the dilemmas and constraints that the first nation governments are facing in organizations with trying to get engaged with programs like western diversification?

[Keith Atkinson]

Thank you very much for raising that point.

Overall, there has been a declining availability of resources for first nations, not just in the forest sector but for all our organizations. It makes it very challenging for us to provide the product that we want to build a relationship with other levels of government. As for WED, in particular, we started a number of years ago with a value-added program with FPInnovations. We launched that. We absolutely need groups like that to be our partners to deliver it in a professional manner; we're very small and new in the space. The benefit is for us to lead it to make sure that our aboriginal values are part of the program and the delivery.

When times got tough and money was being reduced FPInnovations ended up having a better chance going on their own. They've continued since with first nations forestry funding from the federal family, provincially, and with their industry partners. That almost put us out of business. We had one year where we had zero funding. We're operating where I'm doing well if I get $500,000 for our organization a year. That doesn't go very far for 203 first nations and the participation and opportunity in forestry that we have.

When we have to compete in national-level funding mechanisms, we don't win those races very well. We don't have LNG in our name so it makes it very tough to get funding. We really look forward to some sort of support at a provincially sized, recognizable, and appropriate scale, so we can participate and activate our ideas in support of the sector.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you for sharing.

One of the things that has struck me about this review so far is that it has certainly been optimistic. This applies to all the witnesses we've heard. I think that's great.

I'd like whoever would like to answer to take this particular question about employment. Keep in mind that since 2006 about 112,000 direct forestry jobs have been lost. I don't think we should lose sight of that. What is your best prognostication of what the future holds in employment in the forestry sector, moving on; let's say, your best prediction five or 10 years from now?

I don't know who would like to answer, but go ahead.

Mr. Lee, perhaps. You're smiling. Does that mean you would like to answer?

[Christopher Lee]

I don't have a number for you but I think things are very optimistic. The forest industry had a real challenge when oil and gas was booming because a lot of people moved over into that sector. Now, with oil prices dropping, a lot of mills are able to restaff with skilled workers because fewer are working in oil and gas.

I see lists of job opportunities all the time for foresters, forest technicians, and others coming across my desk, and I'm very encouraged. I don't have the numbers for you, but I think it's very positive.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Mr. Baker, perhaps—

Mr. Atkinson, sure, go ahead.

[Keith Atkinson]

I'd reiterate the numbers I shared earlier. This is an extremely good opportunity. The research we've seen for the labour market shows.... I talked about 14,000 new workers in the next five years, just about 3,000 workers a year in B.C. alone, and that is only the replacement need for the sector. If we can turn our sector into a growing, job-creating environment, we'll add to the need for more workers.

We are absolutely going to do it just because of the demographic of the baby boomers leaving the sector. We need to infuse the youth into.... We have a real challenge to get new workers in but it's a great opportunity. We strongly want to participate with our aboriginal youth.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Mr. Baker, did you want to respond to that as well?

[Ken Baker]

I would draw a distinction in the British Columbian context between our interior forest industry and our coastal forest industry. As I'm sure the committee knows, we have a dreadful problem with the mountain pine beetle having significantly reduced the economic timber supply at least, with reductions yet to come in allowable annual cuts, so I wouldn't anticipate the overall number of people employed in the forest industry in the interior of our province to grow significantly. As Mr. Atkinson points out, there is great opportunity in replacing the older folks who are retiring and about to drop out of the industry. There is huge potential there.

On the coast, however, we have a very untapped resource with considerable opportunity for expansion and growth in employment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Leon Benoit]

Okay, thank you all very much.

The bells are going. We have votes coming up here.

I'll start by thanking all the witnesses with us here today. We have Dr. Chui, professor and director, Wood Science and Technology Centre, University of New Brunswick. Thank you for being here. From the Canadian Association of Forest Owners, Mr. Lee, managing director, thank you very much for coming today. From Vancouver, we have, from Forestry Innovation Investment, Ken Baker, chief executive officer. Thank you, sir. From the B.C. First Nations Forestry Council, we have Keith Atkinson, chief executive officer. Thank you very much, sir.

Thank you to all the members for their great questions and comments once again today.

The meeting is adjourned.