Evidence of meeting #8 for Natural Resources in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendments.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jeff Labonté  Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources
Anne-Marie Fortin  Counsel, Department of Natural Resources
Brenda Baxter  Director General, Workplace Directorate, Labour Program, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Scott Tessier  Chair and Chief Executive Officer, Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Offshore Petroleum Board
Stuart Pinks  Chief Executive Officer, Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Good afternoon, everyone. It's good to see all of you again.

Before we get to the business of the day, I want to mention to members of the committee that there's been a request, as I mentioned before, for members of the natural resources committee to meet with members of the Turkish parliament and the Ambassador of the Republic of Turkey, and others, tomorrow between nine and ten, at 131 Queen Street. That's between nine o'clock and ten o'clock, on the eighth floor. For anyone who can possibly make that work, we would love to see you there.

When a delegation comes, it's appreciated if Canadian members of Parliament can make time to meet with them, so I'm putting in a request again.

Ms. Duncan, go ahead, please.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, every Tuesday at nine we have a meeting of our members for this committee, and that's for at least half an hour, so I don't think we're going to be able to go at that time.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

You can quiz Peter when he gets here.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Okay. We'll see what we can do with that.

Today we're here, pursuant to the order of reference of Tuesday, November 26, 2013, to study Bill C-5, an act to amend the Canada-Newfoundland Atlantic Accord Implementation Act, the Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Resources Accord Implementation Act and other acts and to provide for certain other measures.

We have two one-hour sessions in our meeting today.

In the first hour, we have, from the Department of Natural Resources, Jeff Labonté, director general, energy safety and security branch. Welcome to you. We have Samuel Millar, senior director, frontier lands management division, petroleum resources branch. Welcome to you. We have Anne-Marie Fortin, counsel. Welcome. We have Tyler Cummings, deputy director, frontier lands management division, petroleum resources branch. Welcome to you.

We have as well, from Employment and Social Development Canada, Brenda Baxter, director general, workplace directorate, labour program. Welcome to you.

Go ahead with your presentations as you have them planned, and then we'll get to questions and comments from the committee members.

Go ahead, please, Mr. Labonté.

3:30 p.m.

Jeff Labonté Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Mr. Chair, and members, thank you very much for the opportunity to present further information on Bill C-5, the offshore health and safety act, a package of offshore health and safety amendments.

My name is Jeff Labonté, and I'm the director general for the energy sector of the Department of Natural Resources. I'm joined by my colleagues, whom the chair has identified.

We're here today to talk on behalf of the department and the deputy minister and minister about Bill C-5 as proposed in the House. It's a set of provisions to amend the accord acts, as well as a number of other acts, and to clarify and strengthen occupational health and safety in the regime for Canada's Atlantic offshore areas where there are active oil and gas developments and exploration activities.

I'll start by pointing out and underlining that the accord acts are somewhat unique as legislation in the federal and provincial versions mirror each other, allowing Canada to continue under what we term shared management regimes with both the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and the Province of Nova Scotia. We are also actually actively in discussion with the Province of Quebec to establish similar mirror legislation.

By mirror legislation we mean that both federal and provincial legislatures have nearly identical legislation that creates a management structure that allows development to occur on an orderly basis and on a basis that's clarified in law and with a regulatory body. It also means that when amendments are required in the offshore area, there is more than one active party in legislature that requires agreement in terms of how to move forward to make amendments.

Bill C-5 is the culmination of a thorough and sustained process of collaboration with our partners in the provinces of Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia. All three governments introduced this legislation in May of this year. I'm happy to say that the respective provincial governments passed the legislative amendments and they received royal assent in each of the provinces. In the case of the federal legislation, it was tabled; we came to committee; and the legislation has been reintroduced.

Just as joint management is unique and has a unique legislative frame, our Atlantic offshore is also a unique workplace. Not unique, however, is the need to ensure that the offshore industry carries out its activities safely and in compliance with the most stringent workplace and environmental standards. Canadians expect to see a world-class regulatory regime, and the proposed legislative amendments ensure that our offshore regime remains world class and among the strongest.

The proposed amendments clearly establish authority for occupational health and safety in each of the accord acts and provide that they will be administered by our offshore boards, our arm's-length offshore regulators, who are experts in oil and gas. I understand that later this evening you will have before you the heads of two of the regulatory agencies in Atlantic Canada.

The amendments proposed cement in statute current practices in which the offshore boards apply occupational health and safety standards and requirements traditionally as conditions of licence to operate. Thus, the proposed amendments clarify accountability in statute and will introduce other improvements so the regime can continue to build on its existing safety record, which is solid. The legislation proposes specific worker rights, a new governance model, clarity in the hierarchy of responsibility, and new powers to the offshore board and its officers to enhance safety.

I'll walk briefly through each of these, and then I'll turn the conversation over to you for your questions.

With respect to specific worker rights, the amendments include three fundamental worker rights: the right to know, to be informed about the workplace, the hazards that exist, and the safeguards in place to mitigate them; the right to participate, to be a key part of the decisions that affect health and safety in the workplace; and the right to refuse dangerous work. When we're talking about workplaces here in the offshore, we're talking about workplaces that can be hundreds of kilometres offshore in the North Atlantic, and the need for these rights becomes magnified.

The amendments also propose a specific new governance model for the proposed occupational health and safety sections of the accord acts. Provincial ministers responsible for occupational health and safety will have oversight in partnership with the federal Minister of Natural Resources. This reflects the agreement of the original accord act in which provincial social legislation would apply, and in this case we're talking about labour.

Federally, the Minister of Natural Resources will call on the Minister of Labour as needed, and as the legislation outlines, he or she must do so in specific circumstances, i.e., to review and approve regulations and nominations to the occupational health and safety advisory committee.

The federal minister will also call on the Minister of Transport, as needed, to ensure consistency for our workers offshore when they are in transit to and from the workplace by marine or by air. The legislation also establishes an occupational health and safety advisory council for each of the offshore areas and includes the respective chief safety officers as members. We intend that each committee will advise governments on worker health and safety issues, including any concerns that may arise in the context of work authorizations, i.e., those related to the operation of the offshore.

With respect to hierarchy of safety, the amendments proposed create a clear hierarchy of responsibility. In doing so, they address a certain point. One is that no one wants an incident to happen, not the companies, the offshore boards, the federal government, the provincial governments, the unions, nor the workers, who all strive to ensure that incidents don't arise. But when something does, the last thing that anyone wants is that we're not responsible or that someone else is responsible. This legislation proposes that it is the operator who is ultimately responsible for the safety and well-being of all workers, contractors, and even visitors who join the opportunity to visit its facilities. The legislation also spells out the duties of employers, supervisors, employees, contractors, and interest holders, as well as the offshore boards and their officers.

The nature of the offshore is that the work sites are far away and certainly necessitate travel and movement to reach the platforms. The legislation also proposes that the health and safety regime explicitly apply to workers when in transit to the offshore. Any worker can refuse to be transported, without reprisal, if concerned with safety. The legislation also includes powers to establish regulations related to additional safety equipment for workers in transit, and offshore board inspectors have the power to conduct compliance audits on vessels used to transport workers. These measures taken together would enhance safety for workers and those in transit to the offshore.

New powers for the boards and officers is the final area that I wish to speak to. The legislation provides a new suite of powers to offshore board officers to enhance safety. For example, they would have the ability and power to inspect the workplace, to take samples, to meet in private with an individual, and to inspect, as needed, living quarters. Due to the distance and some of the issues I mentioned earlier, these officers have the power to act in exigent circumstances; that is, they could act without a warrant to preserve evidence or to prevent non-compliance. A requisite warrant would have to be sought post-activity and be granted by a judge or equivalent.

The final area that I will cover is that of the chief safety officer. First, to ensure that safety considerations are always represented, the legislation proposes that the position of the chief safety officer can never be held by a CEO of the board. In addition, a chief safety officer would have to review and provide written recommendations related to safety on all operational authorizations. This would formalize a process that both boards have already been following and is a practice of ensuring that safety is a priority. Chief safety officers would also be granted the power to allow regulatory substitutions. These could be made when an operator satisfies the chief safety officer that the substitution proposed provides an equivalent or greater level of safety. The chief safety officer could also require that the operator or employer establish a special operational health and safety committee. The committee would be in addition to the workplace health and safety committee that all workplaces with more than five employees must establish.

In certain special circumstances, the legislation also provides that the provincial minister have an exceptional power to appoint a special officer. The legislation is very clear that this can only be done when there are reasonable grounds to believe that such an appointment is warranted to avoid a serious risk to health and safety, and that risk could not be avoided through the use of any other means available through other acts. Both the federal and provincial ministers would have to agree that the required conditions have been fulfilled. The orders of a special officer would supersede all orders of all other officers, including the chief safety officer.

I'd like to close by saying that this proposed legislation is an important step in clarifying our already excellent offshore oil and gas regime and ensures that occupational health and safety remains a priority. We look forward to your questions and discussion on this proposed legislation as it's being considered by Parliament.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Mr. Labonté, for your presentation.

We go now to questions and comments from members, starting with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Natural Resources, Ms. Block. Go ahead, please.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome all of you here to committee. I'm looking forward to the questions and answers that will come out of this session. I do want to thank you as well for obviously all the hard work that has gone into the creation of this legislation.

I'd also like to start by acknowledging just how vital the offshore resources industry is to Atlantic Canada, and in fact to our country's economy. I know the offshore oil and gas industries have made an enormous contribution to Newfoundland and Labrador, and Nova Scotia, and that these industries have transformed the economy of eastern Canada.

With all that activity comes the need to ensure that we have a world-class regulatory body, to ensure that our government is taking measures necessary to ensure Canadian satisfaction in this regard and ensure that people are safe in their workplace.

I also know that this bill has been in the making for many years. I'd like to ask you to describe the process historically and then how crucial it is that these amendments be enacted promptly at this time.

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Thank you for the question.

The work on the legislative package before Parliament got under way almost a dozen years ago. It was following an accident in Nova Scotia in which a worker in a workplace was killed. In that particular accident, the accord acts originally separated operational safety, the operations of the technical units and things that are happening in the offshore, which was embedded within the accord acts, and occupational health and safety as a separate area which fell under the provincial jurisdiction.

In the workplace, in this particular instance and in several instances, there was some potential for what we call the grey area, or what was exposed as a grey area at that point a dozen years ago. Was the worker working in the workplace who received an injury, and who in this case was killed, under occupational health and safety, which was provincial legislation, or was that worker actually working on an operational issue, on operational safety, which is under the accord act legislation, which we would think as federal and the province would think as provincial.

The confusion between whether it was occupational health and safety or whether it was operational was what led to an inability to kind of follow through with this particular instance in a way that left all the governments, all the labour groups together, and all the operators believing this needed to be addressed.

That led to a 12-year process in which, over a number of iterations and through sustained discussions with the provinces of Nova Scotia and Newfoundland and Labrador, the worker community and the operators, the legislation proposed a series of amendments that would take the existing provincial legislation in some cases, existing guidelines in other cases, existing regulations under different acts and embed them and draft them into the accord acts. For the offshore it would be clear that occupational health and safety fit the unique circumstances, and that it fit within the context, but also managed to live within the spirit of the original accord acts, which was that social legislation was going to respect the provincial jurisdiction to the extent it could.

That's something we tried to preserve in the drafting of the bill and in the materials that were in it. The provinces likewise did the same.

It was a fairly extensive process through a number of years. It had reached certain points, in the mid-2007 era, when the bill appeared to be ready to be brought forward, but there was a need to further strengthen the governance on the labour side of the bill. Another series of amendments was proposed and drafted.

Our colleagues in Justice have been on the file for a number of years with the department.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Thank you. That might lead to my next question.

You mentioned that the accord acts are unique in that there's mirror legislation with federal and provincial governments. We know that they've passed in both the provinces involved.

I'm wondering if you could describe for us that consultation process between the two provinces and the federal government.

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

It's a fairly detailed and involved process.

What normally happens is the legislation is drafted by a committee that has provincial members, federal members, and justice members. We draft the federal legislation first. Then it goes back and forth between the provinces and the federal government. We go back and forth looking at the different aspects. Then there are consultations with different experts in the community and experts in the domain. Then there is the process of the drafting expertise that goes on, and there's a back and forth that takes a fairly significant amount of time to ensure there are no unintended aspects in either of the provincial cases. To a certain degree, there are fairly detailed negotiations to deal with points of difference, points of nuance, points of interpretation, and we draft together for extended periods. We then settle on the federal bill. It then goes out to the provinces, which draft their own mirror versions that have the right references to their own legislation. Then it all comes back together for a review by everybody ensemble, if you will, and then we move forward separately into introducing it in each of the legislatures.

In the case of the two provinces, they did so earlier this year. Their legislative agenda is different from Parliament's here, federally. Both bills passed and received royal assent. Their legislatures have shorter processes, if you will, and fewer stages of review.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

We know that this requires both the Minister of Natural Resources and the Minister of Labour to work together. How closely will they work together as a result of this legislation?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

We have worked and continue to work closely with Labour Canada at the officials level. The two ministers have to both agree on regulatory processes and amendments. Before moving forward on regulations or amending the regulations, or introducing new regulations with respect to labour, they have to pass through the Minister of Labour for reviewing and signing, as approval. Then they come back to the Minister of Natural Resources, who then has the final accountability to deliver it to the Treasury Board ministers and the government.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Leon Benoit

Thank you, Ms. Block.

We go now to the official opposition, and to Mr. Cleary, for up to seven minutes. Go ahead, please.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

First things first. Mr. Labonté, I noticed that you're having some trouble with the pronunciation of Newfoundland. A good trick is to say, “Newfoundland, understand; understand Newfoundland.” That way you'll never get it wrong.

In one of the last statements that you made in your opening remarks, you mentioned how this proposed legislation is an important step in clarifying our already excellent offshore oil and gas regime and in ensuring occupational health and safety remains a priority.

There are some people in Newfoundland and Labrador who would have a problem with that particular statement, Mr. Labonté. Justice Robert Wells held an inquiry in 2010 into the crash of Cougar flight 491 that took the lives of 17 offshore workers. In Justice Wells' words, the most important recommendation from that inquiry was recommendation number 29. Recommendation 29 called for an independent health and safety regulator, an independent health and safety regulator.

My question is, why wasn't that particular recommendation for an independent safety regulator included in this bill?

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Thanks for the question and the pronunciation. I'll keep that in mind. Having grown up in central Canada, I'm always willing to learn about the new varieties in regional differences in how we pronounce things.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

No worries; we encounter that a lot from central Canadians.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Indeed. You would think we have an accent in central Canada, and I would think the same for Newfoundland and Labrador—Newfoundland, understand—and Labrador.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Perfect.

3:50 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Good. The chair of the Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Offshore Petroleum Board will probably correct me on that in the next hour.

The first comment I would make would be that the drafting of the legislation and the identification of the occupational health and safety issues long preceded Justice Wells' inquiry and the work that he had done. Certainly notwithstanding the incident and the tragedy that resulted in the workers perishing in the accident, the work that was done on the bill and the work to move forward with occupational health and safety was an effort to try to make sure there was clarity on what occupational health and safety encompassed, and how it would be addressed in the accord acts. It didn't speak to the structure of the offshore board in terms of its organizational design, except to say that the powers and roles of the board officials, who are responsible for safety, were clarified.

I'd have to say that there are a number of important aspects in the bill that address some of the issues that were raised by that report. Certainly there were 28 recommendations in that report that the board has moved forward with. Recommendation 29 had two parts, (a) and (b). Recommendation 29(a) recommended the separate safety regulator, and 29(b) recommended that within the current legislative framework there were a number of things the government could consider and the board could consider, and a number of practices that could be considered. Certainly a number of those things were well under way. A number of them have been addressed, and we continue to talk with our colleagues in Newfoundland and Labrador to address all of the elements that we have, and to ensure we have a safe workplace.

That said, the bill's amendments certainly are another step at moving forward and continuing to address occupational health and safety, and to ensure, to the extent we can, that workers in the workplace remain safe.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Thank you very much for that answer.

The Canada-Newfoundland and Labrador Offshore Petroleum Board looks after three different mandates: health and safety, the environment, and industry regulation. Some people where I come from say that puts the C-NLOPB in a potential conflict. You can't look after three adequately.

Kathy Dunderdale, the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, and this comes back to my first question, has endorsed recommendation 29, saying that the province wants to move forward with this, but again, it comes down to the federal government and its failure to move forward itself.

More specifically, can you tell me whether or not your department has plans to move forward with an independent safety regulator for the offshore oil industry off Newfoundland and Labrador, and off Nova Scotia?

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

I think the Premier of Newfoundland expressed a number of years ago an interest in recommendation 29. She didn't actually express whether it was (a) or (b). At the time of that expression I think the legislation we're speaking to was not yet tabled, nor had it been considered.

From the perspective of the federal government, I think Minister Oliver, who is responsible for the Department of Natural Resources, has expressed some concern about what some have termed the balkanization, or potentially the dilution, of the expertise in the offshore industry should there be more than one regulator.

I think you made the statement about the environment, industry regulation, and safety when you said that there were three roles.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Ryan Cleary NDP St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL

Right, yes.

3:55 p.m.

Director General, Energy Safety and Security Branch, Department of Natural Resources

Jeff Labonté

Correct. There are three roles that the board performs. There is the role of safety, looking at the safety of operations. The amendments would address the safety of the workplace, which is one of its primary roles and it is ultimately its most important role. The amendments proposed actually provide the chief safety officer the ability to shut down an operation. That actually cannot be overturned by the CEO. It cannot be overturned by the board itself. It can only be overturned by a provincial court judge.